In this episode, author Zachary Wagner recounts his personal journey and explores the irony of the purity culture movement in the white American evangelical subculture, highlighting the need for men to join the conversation about sexual violence and misconduct in church spaces.
In this episode, you will be able to:
- Identify the repercussions of toxic masculinity within the Church and initiate constructive conversations.
- Confront the issues of power abuse and spiritual maltreatment, promoting healthier religious communities.
- Recognize the impact of cultural norms and pornography on men’s behaviors and attitudes.
- Advocate for the inclusion of women’s input in discussions about harmful male stereotypes.
- Prioritize personal well-being and self-care in pursuit of a mentally and emotionally fulfilling journey.
My special guest is Zachary Wagner
Introducing Zachary Wagner- a writer, researcher, ordained minister––thinker of thoughts and feeler of feelings. Originally from the Chicagoland area, he now lives in Oxford, England, where he is pursuing a DPhil (PhD) in New Testament studies at Keble College, University of Oxford. He also serves as the editorial director of the Center for Pastor Theologians, where he co-hosts the CPT Podcast. His research interests include economics in the ancient world, divine wages in Second Temple Judaism and early Christianity, Pauline epistles, the Gospel of Matthew, and New Testament masculinities. His first book, Non-Toxic Masculinity: Recovering Healthy Male Sexuality, was published in 2023 with Intervarsity Press. Zach’s other writing interests include evangelical and “post-vangelical” Christian discipleship, theological formation, and speaking against church-based abuse.
Follow Zachary on Twitter at: https://twitter.com/zacharycwagner
The resources mentioned in this episode are:
- Purchase Nontoxic Masculinity: Recovering Healthy Male Sexuality by Zachary Wagner.
- Check out the Center for Pastor Theologians and listen to their podcast.
- Follow Zachary Wagner on social media for more updates and insights.
- Read more about the #ChurchToo movement and the #MeToo movement to stay informed and educated.
- Consider seeking therapy or counseling if you have experienced trauma or shame related to sexuality.
- Speak out against toxic masculinity and actively work to promote healthy and respectful attitudes towards all genders.
- Support organizations and initiatives that work towards ending sexual violence and abuse, both in and outside of religious spaces.
Pornography and Its Effects
Zachary Wagner addresses the impact pornography has on male attitudes and behaviors surrounding sexuality. He notes that this cultural force often influences the formation of compulsive habits and promotes immature expressions of sexuality. Wagner also discusses the male brain’s interaction with pornography, potentially shaping attitudes towards women even without direct exposure to explicit content. He encourages men to rethink their sexual responses and move away from the harmful effects of pornography. Instead, he urges them to adopt more humanizing and mature ways of engaging with their sexuality, demonstrating respect and understanding for themselves and others. By doing so, we can foster healthier relationships and a society where individuals are not subjected to the harmful consequences of toxic masculinity.
Harmful Effects of Toxic Masculinity
Toxic masculinity is a prevailing issue with far-reaching consequences beyond perpetuating negative male stereotypes. It has harmful effects on both men and women, hindering the formation of healthy relationships and contributing to a culture of abuse and violence. When discussing his personal experiences growing up within white American evangelical subculture, Zachary Wagner sheds light on the shame he felt surrounding sexuality, exacerbated by his wife’s experiences of childhood sexual abuse. Wagner believes that while sexual abuse is not a recent phenomenon, the increasing awareness of its prevalence is noteworthy. For change to happen, it is vital for men to actively engage in conversations about toxic masculinity and to take responsibility in finding solutions to the problem. He calls for an effort to break free from the distorted images of manhood and gender that have persisted for so long.
Toxic Masculinity in Megachurches
The discussion highlights the connection between toxic masculinity and megachurches in the United States. These churches often prioritize pragmatism, measuring success in terms of numbers and financial gains, which can contravene genuine spiritual growth. This culture of accomplishment can lead to the elevation of people with serious character flaws, propagating an alpha male, CEO-like mentality for pastoral ministry. Zachary Wagner asserts that the fruit of such churches often focuses on external metrics rather than on spiritual outcomes and long-term growth potential. Wagner argues that addressing toxic masculinity within these environments is essential for creating a more welcoming and supportive space for all congregants. By reevaluating their approaches to leadership and power dynamics, megachurches can foster a better culture within their communities, reducing the detrimental impact of toxic masculinity.
When abusers are given a pass and often the pass is associated with their maleness in that this is the vision of maleness.
“The fact that a certain form of unhealthy masculine sexuality has found a foothold in these communities of faith is really, really not okay. And women seem to be talking about this plenty, but not enough men are engaging in the conversation.” – Zachary Wagner
“Until men engage in the conversation, I fear this is just going to keep happening. We’ll just be playing catch up and clean up to whatever the next scandal that reveals itself is and not really addressing the problem at its root.” – Zachary Wagner
The key moments in this episode are:
00:00:01 – Introduction,
00:02:37 – Inspiration for Writing the Book,
00:12:29 – Wake Up, Guys,
00:16:30 – Dangerous Male Body-Centric Theology,
00:18:29 – Criticisms of Sexual Imagery in Christianity,
00:21:49 – Minimizing Abuse Hurts Everyone,
00:28:19 – Toxic Masculinity in Megachurches,
00:29:50 – Harmful Effects of Toxic Masculinity,
00:37:05 – Dehumanization of Women,
00:45:41 – Pornography and its Effects,
00:50:06 – Toxic Masculinity is not Exclusive to Christianity,
00:54:10 – Importance of Taking Care of Yourself,
00:54:49 – Thanks to the Community,
00:55:06 – Upcoming Guest,
00:56:16 – Different Translation of the New Testament,
00:56:52 – Catching Up with Dr. Scott McKnight,
Zachary Wagner, a writer, researcher, and ordained minister, is here to share his thoughts on centering women’s voices in conversations around toxic masculinity. Originally from Chicagoland, he now resides in Oxford, England, where he is pursuing a PhD in New Testament Studies. Zachary serves as the editorial director for the Center for Pastor Theologians and co-hosts the CPT podcast. His research interests include ancient economics, divine wages in Second Temple Judaism, early Christianity, and New Testament masculinities. A passionate advocate against church-based abuse, Zachary recently authored Nontoxic Masculinity: Recovering Healthy Male Sexuality.
Timestamped summary of this episode:
00:00:01 – Introduction,
Lori Adams-Brown introduces Zachary Wagner, the writer, researcher, and ordained minister who has written a book titled Nontoxic Masculinity: Recovering Healthy Male Sexuality. The episode is centered around the topic of toxic masculinity and its impact in the evangelical church.
00:02:37 – Inspiration for Writing the Book,
Zachary Wagner talks about his inspiration for writing the book. He shares how his personal experiences growing up in the white American evangelical subculture that promoted purity culture, and his own struggles with pornography and shame, as well as his wife’s experience with church-based sexual abuse, motivated him to address the problem of toxic masculinity in the church.
00:12:29 – Wake Up, Guys,
Zachary Wagner discusses the church’s long-standing problem with sexual abuse and misconduct against women and children. He emphasizes the need for men to take responsibility and join the conversation to address the problem of toxic masculinity in the church, which often stems from a sub-Christian and dehumanizing vision of what it means to be a man.
00:16:30 – Dangerous Male Body-Centric Theology,
Zachary Wagner comments on the recent controversy surrounding an article that compared the gospel to sexual assault and marital rape. He clarifies that the text it was based on, Ephesians Five, is very careful in what it does and does not say about the relationship between Christ and the Church and the relationship between husband and wife. He warns against a dangerous male body-centric theology and the need for a more holistic and
00:18:29 – Criticisms of Sexual Imagery in Christianity,
Zachary Wagner discusses the use of sexual imagery in Christianity and highlights the potential theological criticisms. He emphasizes that in the current cultural climate, it is unwise to use such imagery. Wagner also draws comparisons to pagan sex cults and Greco-Roman values regarding masculinity.
00:21:49 – Minimizing Abuse Hurts Everyone,
Wagner reflects on the harms of minimizing abuse, particularly in the context of male-centered theology and toxic masculinity. He stresses the importance of men speaking up when they see women being harmed or rhetoric that perpetuates harmful ideologies. Wagner argues that when abusers are not held accountable, both the victim and the abuser suffer.
00:28:19 – Toxic Masculinity in Megachurches,
The conversation turns to the prevalence of toxic masculinity in megachurches and evangelicalism in America. Wagner argues that many have wedded themselves to cultural pragmatist ideals about results and numbers, leading to a certain type of masculine, macho, alpha-male CEO vision for pastoral ministry. He notes that this has led to elevating leaders with serious character deficiencies and neglecting the spiritual outcomes for congregants.
00:29:50 – Harmful Effects of Toxic Masculinity,
The discussion centers on the harmful effects of toxic masculinity, particularly in evangelicalism in America. Wagner notes that the focus on toxic masculinity has led to abuse in many instances, both for men and women. He argues that it is critical to shift the focus towards a kind
00:37:05 – Dehumanization of Women,
Toxic masculinity leads to dehumanization of women, objectification of female bodies, and a harmful culture of male sexualization. The book, Every Man’s Battle, popularized the idea that men have a hyper-sexualized lens through which they view the world, leading to the objectification of women. As a result, women are often questioned, not believed, and placed on trial when men’s sexuality goes awry. Pornography use reinforces these negative attitudes towards women and trains men’s sexual response cycles, even years after they stop watching it.
00:45:41 – Pornography and its Effects,
Pornography is one of the most powerful cultural forces in shaping men’s toxic attitudes and behaviors towards their sexuality. Many Christian communities stigmatize and pathologize pornography, leading to cycles of lying and deception by men who use it. Even men who no longer watch pornography may still be shaped by it and have their brains and bodies interact with women in toxic ways. The book encourages all men to think deeply about how pornography has shaped their sexuality and to find a more healthy and mature expression of it.
00:50:06 – Toxic Masculinity is not Exclusive to Christianity,
Toxic masculinity is not a concept exclusive to Christianity, but something that affects all people, regardless of faith. Women are often excluded from spaces where men coalesce unhealthy perspectives and approaches to certain issues and problems. This hyper-sexualized vision of male minds and attitude of fear directed towards female bodies creates a system where women are not heard or believed. The book encourages men
00:54:10 – Importance of Taking Care of Yourself,
Taking care of yourself is not only beneficial for your own well-being, but it also sets an example for others to follow. It’s important to make time for self-care, such as eating, drinking, resting, and taking breaks from daily routines.
00:54:49 – Thanks to the Community,
The host expresses gratitude towards the community and acknowledges the difference it has made in her life. She encourages everyone to continue making a difference in their own way.
00:55:06 – Upcoming Guest,
Dr. Scott McKnight will be the next guest on the podcast. He will be discussing his upcoming book, the Second Testament, which includes a unique translation of the New Testament. He also talks about spiritual abuse and advocacy for survivors.
00:56:16 – Different Translation of the New Testament,
The Second Testament provides a different translation of the New Testament, which may challenge readers’ preconceived notions of familiar Bible characters. Dr. Scott McKnight will explain some of the changes he made and discuss the concept of dynamic equivalence in translation.
00:56:52 – Catching Up with Dr. Scott McKnight,
The conversation with Dr. Scott McKnight will also touch on his advocacy for survivors of spiritual abuse. He will share his insights and what he has learned since writing his book, A Church Called Tove.
- Purchase Nontoxic Masculinity: Recovering Healthy Male Sexuality by Zachary Wagner.
- Check out the Center for Pastor Theologians and listen to their podcast.
- Follow Zachary Wagner on social media for more updates and insights.
- Read more about the Church Two movement and the MeToo movement to stay informed and educated.
- Consider seeking therapy or counseling if you have experienced trauma or shame related to sexuality.
- Speak out against toxic masculinity and actively work to promote healthy and respectful attitudes towards all genders.
- Support organizations and initiatives that work towards ending sexual violence and abuse, both in and outside of religious spaces.
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