When Pastors Become Dictators: Inside the Leadership Industrial Complex with Lance Ford

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Welcome to the a World of Difference

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podcast. I'm Lori Adams Brown, and this is

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a podcast for those who are different and

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want to make a difference. This podcast is

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is www.betterhelp.com difference to get

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10% off your first month today. Today on

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the podcast, we have a man who is truly

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trying to make a difference in faith

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communities in ways that are both

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difficult to navigate with a lot of

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obstacles, but he brings a lot of

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research, experience and wisdom to the

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conversation. So happy to bring onto the

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show today Lance Ford, an author of

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multiple books, but he's releasing a new

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book called the Atlas Factor, and today

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we're going to talk about this book as

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it's being released. But I just wanted to

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give you a little information about Lance

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and why he's qualified to write a book

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like this. With over three decades of

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experience as a pastor and a church

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planner, Lance has been a coach and

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consultant who has designed unique

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training systems that's currently being

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used by network seminaries and leaders

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throughout the world. But he's also

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written, you may have read some of his

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articles in Christianity Today and

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Outreach magazine relevant and others, as

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well as he co founded the centralized

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conference. His books, if you've read

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them, ones he's written in the past, are

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unleader, the Starfish and the Spirit,

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which is the first of his books that I

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read back in the day, missional

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essentials, the missional quest next door

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as it is in heaven and others. But this

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book is really important because he's

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addressing some issues in the faith

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community and especially evangelical

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spaces. And around this metaphor of the

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Atlas factor, we're going to unpack that

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together a little bit. But it's about

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shifting leadership onto the shoulders of

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Jesus and off of what we often consider a

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senior pastor, head pastor, especially at

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some of these very large churches, but

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even small churches. So I got to meet

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Lance back in Chicago when we were both

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speaking at a conference, the Restore

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conference up in Chicago in October. And I

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walked into the speaker room and he's the

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first person I met in there. And we really

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connected because of some similar spaces

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and experiences and really happy to have

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him on the show today. If you've not read

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any of his books in the past, you are

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really in for some insightful

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conversation. Because he's a big

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researcher, he reads widely, digs deep,

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and some of the things he shared at the

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Restore conference are things I still

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really have kind of mold over in my own

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mind. I know a lot of us have as to the

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things he was telling us about there and

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really have enjoyed getting an advanced

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copy of his book. My husband Jason and I

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have both been reading it, and it's so

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insightful. So happy to introduce you if

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you've not yet heard of him or allow you

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to hear this man you've been following for

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a while and reading his work. So welcome

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to the world of Difference podcast today.

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Lance Ford. Hi, Lance. I'm so excited that

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we're going to have this conversation

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today. Welcome to the podcast and thank

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you for writing this book. I know that

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you've written things in the past, but

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this is a particular book I'm very excited

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about. So thanks for showing up today.

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Well, I appreciate you having me, Laura.

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I've been looking forward to having this

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conversation. Me too. It was so great to

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meet you in person in Chicago a few months

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back in the speaker room and just to know

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some common experiences that we've had and

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some ways we're both trying to make a

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difference in faith spaces that have

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really formed us and that we care about

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getting better and doing better. And so as

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you are launching this book into the

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world, I wanted to start with just tell us

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a little bit about your background and how

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that led to this book coming forth. And as

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we say in the author community, just

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giving birth, even though you're a man, it

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feels like a new experience for you. Yeah,

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it does feel like well, I was present.

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Yeah, I was present for all three of our

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children's births. We used, and this goes

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way back because it's more commonplace now

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in the states than it was then. But 30

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something years ago, when we had all our

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three kids, we used midwives. And it was

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like a new idea, even though it's been

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going around for thousands of years. So

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everybody's like, what? You're not going

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to hospital? So I did see that, but I've

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never been one to say, we're pregnant or

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we're having a baby, because I saw what

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happened. Like, no, we're not pregnant.

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But it does feel that way with a book. So,

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yeah, I was a pastor for 20 something

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years. Kind of went that route that so

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many people do as far as was a youth

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pastor, then an associate pastor, college

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type pastor, and then end up being a

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senior guy, planted a church, and we

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planted several churches out of it. And

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this is back in the mid 90s when we

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planted a church in the northwest suburbs

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of St. Louis. And that was during a time,

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Lori, when it was the height of, I don't

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know if you're too young to remember this,

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and of course, you were living abroad, so

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I don't know how much it was affecting

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you, but it was the Seeker movement, the

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Seeker church movement. And so that in the

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mid 90s was the big rage, and I got caught

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up in that. And that was about the time

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when what I called the leadership

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industrial complex was really starting to

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hit its stride. And so everything in the

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church was starting to become for pastors.

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They didn't call themselves pastors

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anymore. They called themselves leaders.

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And it was all about leadership stuff. And

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so I drank that knew my. There was this

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new little company where you could

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actually order books on this new thing

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called the Internet, and this little

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company called Amazon that sold books.

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That's all they sold, was mean. I got to

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know my Amazon driver by name real well

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because he was showing up two or three

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times a week, bringing me leadership

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books. And so, like so many of my pastor,

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we were. We were reading everything on

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leadership. We're loading van loads up of

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our staff and team to drive to Willow

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Creek, Chicago, a couple times a, and so

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after several years of that along the way,

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it just became really evident to me that

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there were a lot of things that I was

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reading and that I was seeing, and that

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was seeing behind the scenes from pastors

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that I was getting to know and rub

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shoulders with. It was like, there's a lot

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of this stuff that's not adding up it

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doesn't sync well with what Jesus said,

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and it doesn't sync well with what I'm

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seeing in the epistles. And it is kind of

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excused under the mantra of leadership.

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And then I was feeling the weight of it,

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too, of being this great leader and trying

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to live up to all that. So over several

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years, it finally got to the point where I

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just couldn't take it anymore and really

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stepped out of my position at the church

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that we had planted and ended up stepping

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into a leadership position of running a

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couple of networks. And one of the

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networks was a church planting network

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that took me back to the Dallas Fort Worth

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area where I had grown up and on staff at

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a very large megachurch that also had a

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large church planting consortium that I

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ended up being the director of. And that

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really thrust me into the who's who of

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well known pastors. And then I really got

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to see how the sausage was made. So that's

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what really kind of started me on my

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journey of saying, we have to really have

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a go at these systems that we have in the

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church. I wrote my first book in 2012 on

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it. It was a book called Unleader. I don't

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feign or say I was a voice crying in the

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wilderness. I was one of a few voices, but

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there wasn't a lot of people saying

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anything or questioning it, especially

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with published books at that point. When

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my first book was published in 2012, but

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then in 2014 was when Mark Driscoll went

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down, then by 2018, hyples. And then it's

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just been like dominoes ever since then.

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Right? And as we're recording this and

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we're in the midst of one, that's all in

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the scenes right now with Mike Bickle and

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ihoP, and you have to wonder who's on

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deck. Somebody right now is scurrying and

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will be exposed in weeks or months. It's

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going to happen. It keeps happening. So,

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anyway, that's kind of the nickel tour of

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what's brought me to this point of this

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next book. Yeah, it can be pretty

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disorienting for a lot of people who have

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seen from within, but maybe not exactly

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behind the curtain in ways that you have.

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When leaders like this, which, as you

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mentioned, are in this particular

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evangelical community here in the United

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States where we're recording, it does seem

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like a constant situation. But for those

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who are involved in, for example, maybe a

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megachurch right now, or they consider

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themselves a white evangelical in the

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United States, or they're in maybe Brazil,

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and they go to the big christian

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conference where one of these authors is

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coming to speak or in know where they

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don't see necessarily behind the curtain

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in ways that you have, it can be

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disorienting to hear these kinds of

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things. And so when it first happened for

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you, my question is, what was your moment

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of. Aha. Like, I'm not crazy. This is what

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it really is. Yeah. I think it was a

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combination of being on staff at this

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church. Let me first off say it's not just

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megachurches and you know that it can be a

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church of 50 people, and you've got this

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little dictator that's got his little f.

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It can be anywhere. It's just that in the

262
00:12:34,346 --> 00:12:37,582
mega situations, there's more resource and

263
00:12:37,582 --> 00:12:40,942
more power to wield. Right. And there's

264
00:12:40,942 --> 00:12:43,522
more influence. And the bad thing about

265
00:12:43,522 --> 00:12:45,842
that is when these leaders that have these

266
00:12:45,842 --> 00:12:49,726
huge platforms, they are having a huge

267
00:12:49,726 --> 00:12:52,834
influence and multiplying who they are in

268
00:12:52,834 --> 00:12:55,362
all these other young leaders, young

269
00:12:55,362 --> 00:12:58,134
pastors, young church planters. So I think

270
00:12:58,134 --> 00:13:04,514
for me, it was when I then really was on

271
00:13:04,514 --> 00:13:06,834
staff at this large church, and then my

272
00:13:06,834 --> 00:13:09,986
role caused me to do a lot of travel. It

273
00:13:09,986 --> 00:13:12,998
caused me to be literally shoulder to

274
00:13:12,998 --> 00:13:14,406
shoulder. I mean, you could start dropping

275
00:13:14,406 --> 00:13:16,826
names here. And I would probably say yes,

276
00:13:16,826 --> 00:13:19,786
was with that guy, spent a lot of time

277
00:13:19,786 --> 00:13:25,070
with that individual and just seeing

278
00:13:25,070 --> 00:13:31,566
grossness and just excuse and attitudes

279
00:13:31,566 --> 00:13:36,142
that were just so out of bounds and so

280
00:13:36,142 --> 00:13:41,842
anti Jesus that it spun your head. So that

281
00:13:41,842 --> 00:13:44,580
was probably when it all came together for

282
00:13:44,580 --> 00:13:48,022
me, and it just kind of punctuated that.

283
00:13:48,022 --> 00:13:54,406
This is an epidemic. Yeah, you probably

284
00:13:54,406 --> 00:13:56,934
get this question a lot because I do. A

285
00:13:56,934 --> 00:13:58,806
lot from people who are trying to

286
00:13:58,806 --> 00:14:00,858
understand this, which is trying to

287
00:14:00,858 --> 00:14:02,954
understand the unimaginable and something

288
00:14:02,954 --> 00:14:05,020
that can't fully be understood in some

289
00:14:05,020 --> 00:14:08,346
ways. It's one of those, like chicken or

290
00:14:08,346 --> 00:14:09,994
the egg questions that you probably get a

291
00:14:09,994 --> 00:14:12,074
lot. Like, was this leadership culture?

292
00:14:12,074 --> 00:14:13,902
What formed some of these, what we would

293
00:14:13,902 --> 00:14:16,138
often think of as people on the. Whatever

294
00:14:16,138 --> 00:14:19,246
spectrum of narcissism, as these leaders

295
00:14:19,246 --> 00:14:22,286
who can't be questioned, who it feels more

296
00:14:22,286 --> 00:14:25,402
like a cult. So is it that the leadership

297
00:14:25,402 --> 00:14:27,714
culture created this? Were they like this

298
00:14:27,714 --> 00:14:29,394
already? Is that who's surfacing to the

299
00:14:29,394 --> 00:14:30,706
top and then they're giving them skills?

300
00:14:30,706 --> 00:14:33,234
What is your perspective on all that? Yes,

301
00:14:33,234 --> 00:14:34,914
probably a little bit of all of it. I

302
00:14:34,914 --> 00:14:46,246
think that if someone has a. If they're,

303
00:14:46,246 --> 00:14:48,914
like, on the spectrum for a narcissist,

304
00:14:48,914 --> 00:14:52,358
if. If they move towards these type of

305
00:14:52,358 --> 00:14:55,626
positions, then it's like gas on the fire

306
00:14:55,626 --> 00:14:59,162
on the inside of them. And I haven't done

307
00:14:59,162 --> 00:15:01,046
any heavy studies. Maybe you have. I

308
00:15:01,046 --> 00:15:04,526
haven't done any heavy studies on. I've

309
00:15:04,526 --> 00:15:06,686
seen a few statistics, but I can't pull

310
00:15:06,686 --> 00:15:08,798
any of them up, or I can't recall any in

311
00:15:08,798 --> 00:15:11,822
particular right now. But I do know that

312
00:15:11,822 --> 00:15:13,538
from what I have seen in the little

313
00:15:13,538 --> 00:15:15,940
research on that particular, that I've

314
00:15:15,940 --> 00:15:23,278
seen that the church or faith based

315
00:15:23,278 --> 00:15:27,190
organizations, they do draw narcissists

316
00:15:27,190 --> 00:15:32,694
into leadership. There is something about

317
00:15:32,694 --> 00:15:35,286
a person that even may have a little bit

318
00:15:35,286 --> 00:15:38,874
of narcissistic tendencies in them that

319
00:15:38,874 --> 00:15:42,860
they are drawn to opportunity to have

320
00:15:42,860 --> 00:15:46,682
power. And the church is a great place for

321
00:15:46,682 --> 00:15:49,434
that. Right. I mean, it's a great place.

322
00:15:49,434 --> 00:15:53,134
If you have that and you want to be seen

323
00:15:53,134 --> 00:15:56,254
as an expert or you want to be known as a

324
00:15:56,254 --> 00:15:59,866
person who is in charge and be in charge,

325
00:15:59,866 --> 00:16:03,106
you've got a pretty good shot at getting a

326
00:16:03,106 --> 00:16:06,446
chance at living that out in the church

327
00:16:06,446 --> 00:16:12,146
somewhere to one degree or another. Yeah.

328
00:16:12,146 --> 00:16:13,826
If you like to hear yourself talk and you

329
00:16:13,826 --> 00:16:15,246
want a captive audience that can't

330
00:16:15,246 --> 00:16:16,486
interrupt you and can't question you, and

331
00:16:16,486 --> 00:16:19,366
you can talk for 30 minutes on a stage

332
00:16:19,366 --> 00:16:22,226
with a door. Great place to live out your

333
00:16:22,226 --> 00:16:27,858
rock star dreams. Exactly. So, yes, I know

334
00:16:27,858 --> 00:16:30,518
we've seen one or two of those along the

335
00:16:30,518 --> 00:16:33,142
way, but as you were doing research for

336
00:16:33,142 --> 00:16:35,286
this book, and I don't like spoiling

337
00:16:35,286 --> 00:16:36,666
people's books, so don't feel like you

338
00:16:36,666 --> 00:16:37,818
have to do that, because I do want people

339
00:16:37,818 --> 00:16:39,274
to buy your book. And by the way, go buy

340
00:16:39,274 --> 00:16:42,086
his book. Is there anything, as you were

341
00:16:42,086 --> 00:16:43,786
researching it, that sort of surprised you

342
00:16:43,786 --> 00:16:45,658
or you didn't expect or that kind of stood

343
00:16:45,658 --> 00:16:47,514
out to you in any way as you were

344
00:16:47,514 --> 00:16:48,746
researching? Yeah, and I don't know if

345
00:16:48,746 --> 00:16:50,078
we've mentioned the title of the book, but

346
00:16:50,078 --> 00:16:52,910
I sure want to mention it's the Atlas

347
00:16:52,910 --> 00:16:56,094
factor, and the subtitle is shifting

348
00:16:56,094 --> 00:16:57,634
leadership onto the shoulders of Jesus.

349
00:16:57,634 --> 00:17:00,542
So, I tell you one thing, Lori that really

350
00:17:00,542 --> 00:17:06,758
surprised me was one day during the

351
00:17:06,758 --> 00:17:10,326
research for it several years ago, I was

352
00:17:10,326 --> 00:17:12,534
just thinking about the word leadership,

353
00:17:12,534 --> 00:17:16,722
and I thought, well, so I have this Oxford

354
00:17:16,722 --> 00:17:19,430
dictionary that's a giant. It weighs about

355
00:17:19,430 --> 00:17:23,618
30 pounds, literally, and it's a 1955

356
00:17:23,618 --> 00:17:25,970
version of the Oxford Universal

357
00:17:25,970 --> 00:17:30,026
Dictionary. And one of the things that

358
00:17:30,026 --> 00:17:31,918
scholars or researchers like about that

359
00:17:31,918 --> 00:17:34,938
particular dictionary is it goes into the

360
00:17:34,938 --> 00:17:37,806
evolution of a word. So it can tell you,

361
00:17:37,806 --> 00:17:41,466
well, here's what this word meant in 1910.

362
00:17:41,466 --> 00:17:44,626
Here's what it meant in 1845. Here's what

363
00:17:44,626 --> 00:17:48,206
it meant in 1320. So it's very

364
00:17:48,206 --> 00:17:51,922
comprehensive. So it's just assumed that

365
00:17:51,922 --> 00:17:53,874
everybody knows what leadership is. So I

366
00:17:53,874 --> 00:17:56,066
thought, well, should we be assuming this?

367
00:17:56,066 --> 00:17:57,730
I want to go look in the Oxford

368
00:17:57,730 --> 00:18:00,582
dictionary. So I pulled it out, and I

369
00:18:00,582 --> 00:18:03,526
started looking for leadership. Now, I'm

370
00:18:03,526 --> 00:18:06,454
not saying the word leader or lead. I was

371
00:18:06,454 --> 00:18:09,494
looking for the word leadership, and I

372
00:18:09,494 --> 00:18:14,326
couldn't find it. And I was like, am I

373
00:18:14,326 --> 00:18:16,234
missing some pages? Did some pages fall

374
00:18:16,234 --> 00:18:19,626
out of my old 1955 Oxford dictionary here,

375
00:18:19,626 --> 00:18:22,606
or what's going on? And sure enough, it

376
00:18:22,606 --> 00:18:26,110
was not defined. I finally found the word

377
00:18:26,110 --> 00:18:29,518
one time as part of around an eight or

378
00:18:29,518 --> 00:18:33,674
nine word definition for the word lead or

379
00:18:33,674 --> 00:18:36,834
leader. I can't remember which one, but I

380
00:18:36,834 --> 00:18:38,974
was amazed. I was like, the word

381
00:18:38,974 --> 00:18:41,714
leadership is not even defined in this go

382
00:18:41,714 --> 00:18:44,706
to dictionary. Well, then come to find out

383
00:18:44,706 --> 00:18:48,466
in the 1915 Noah Webster dictionary, it

384
00:18:48,466 --> 00:18:51,446
wasn't in there at all. So I was shocked

385
00:18:51,446 --> 00:18:54,422
that, well, wait, this word, which we

386
00:18:54,422 --> 00:18:57,960
hear, it's $87 billion industry, by the

387
00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:04,586
way, that's more than media. That's more

388
00:19:04,586 --> 00:19:08,170
than the media industry today is people

389
00:19:08,170 --> 00:19:11,466
spend on books and media of leadership

390
00:19:11,466 --> 00:19:17,434
training, $87 billion a year. But what,

391
00:19:17,434 --> 00:19:19,918
50, you know, 70 years ago, it wasn't even

392
00:19:19,918 --> 00:19:23,446
in the go to dictionary. So the thing that

393
00:19:23,446 --> 00:19:27,298
surprised me was how new leadership is

394
00:19:27,298 --> 00:19:29,634
now. A lot of people immediately jump and

395
00:19:29,634 --> 00:19:31,614
wait. Leadership's been around. The

396
00:19:31,614 --> 00:19:34,034
Chinese were studying leadership. Plato

397
00:19:34,034 --> 00:19:37,254
talked about leadership, sure, but not in

398
00:19:37,254 --> 00:19:40,230
the form that we talk about it today, not

399
00:19:40,230 --> 00:19:42,694
as management. And really, that is the

400
00:19:42,694 --> 00:19:45,910
thing is, most leadership today is

401
00:19:45,910 --> 00:19:48,794
management. And it's management theory.

402
00:19:48,794 --> 00:19:51,114
And management theory really was created

403
00:19:51,114 --> 00:19:54,710
in the early 19 hundreds for the

404
00:19:54,710 --> 00:19:59,626
leadership or for the industrial complex.

405
00:19:59,626 --> 00:20:04,442
And so you had the technology, you had

406
00:20:04,442 --> 00:20:07,774
cars being created, assembly lines, all

407
00:20:07,774 --> 00:20:13,194
this other mechanistic things. When the

408
00:20:13,194 --> 00:20:15,762
industry exploded and they needed to run

409
00:20:15,762 --> 00:20:17,426
these factories, they needed to operate

410
00:20:17,426 --> 00:20:19,326
them. So a guy named Frederick Winslow

411
00:20:19,326 --> 00:20:22,434
Taylor from Bethlehem Steele is really the

412
00:20:22,434 --> 00:20:25,266
one that scholars would say he was the

413
00:20:25,266 --> 00:20:27,078
father of modern day leadership. He wrote

414
00:20:27,078 --> 00:20:31,138
a book called the Scientific Practices of

415
00:20:31,138 --> 00:20:35,350
leadership, and this basically divided the

416
00:20:35,350 --> 00:20:38,170
workers from management. That's when you

417
00:20:38,170 --> 00:20:40,134
got the separation of white collar and

418
00:20:40,134 --> 00:20:43,114
blue collar, and he systematized it. And

419
00:20:43,114 --> 00:20:46,378
then that started being imported straight

420
00:20:46,378 --> 00:20:52,094
into the corporate America. I'm doing all

421
00:20:52,094 --> 00:20:54,126
this research on the term leadership. And

422
00:20:54,126 --> 00:20:57,322
so I started looking to see the history of

423
00:20:57,322 --> 00:21:01,806
books on the term leadership. And there

424
00:21:01,806 --> 00:21:03,806
were barely just a handful of books, even

425
00:21:03,806 --> 00:21:06,466
in the 1930s, with the word leadership in

426
00:21:06,466 --> 00:21:09,214
the title, it started gaining some

427
00:21:09,214 --> 00:21:12,098
traction in the. You started seeing a lot

428
00:21:12,098 --> 00:21:14,034
of books on leadership. So then I thought,

429
00:21:14,034 --> 00:21:16,502
well, let me find Christian. What's the

430
00:21:16,502 --> 00:21:19,126
history of christian books on leadership?

431
00:21:19,126 --> 00:21:21,560
And then I was really blown away, Lori,

432
00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:26,022
because prior to the 1960s, you can't find

433
00:21:26,022 --> 00:21:28,730
any books with the term leadership in the

434
00:21:28,730 --> 00:21:33,594
title, and probably at best around ten to

435
00:21:33,594 --> 00:21:37,062
twelve in the 1960s that even had the term

436
00:21:37,062 --> 00:21:40,922
leadership in a Christian titled book. And

437
00:21:40,922 --> 00:21:45,182
so that really took me down a wormhole of

438
00:21:45,182 --> 00:21:47,406
saying, okay, this is really a new thing

439
00:21:47,406 --> 00:21:50,206
in the church. And I was thinking one day,

440
00:21:50,206 --> 00:21:52,978
I thought 40, 50 years ago, if you were in

441
00:21:52,978 --> 00:21:56,126
a coffee shop and there were some local

442
00:21:56,126 --> 00:21:58,050
pastors sitting around a table sharing

443
00:21:58,050 --> 00:22:02,926
together from a few different churches, I

444
00:22:02,926 --> 00:22:05,426
can't prove this with empirical data, but

445
00:22:05,426 --> 00:22:07,314
I just know because I'm an old guy and I

446
00:22:07,314 --> 00:22:09,926
was around back then, you wouldn't even

447
00:22:09,926 --> 00:22:11,734
have heard the word leadership mentioned

448
00:22:11,734 --> 00:22:13,974
around that table. No one would have said

449
00:22:13,974 --> 00:22:15,634
they wouldn't have called theirselves

450
00:22:15,634 --> 00:22:18,154
leaders. None of the local community would

451
00:22:18,154 --> 00:22:19,338
looked at them and called them leaders.

452
00:22:19,338 --> 00:22:21,766
They would have called them pastors,

453
00:22:21,766 --> 00:22:23,338
ministers, probably ministers, which is

454
00:22:23,338 --> 00:22:27,786
the word servant. So leadership as we know

455
00:22:27,786 --> 00:22:33,338
it today, in particular, as is management,

456
00:22:33,338 --> 00:22:35,680
it's a new thing. It really is a new

457
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:40,926
thing. It is a new thing. And I think some

458
00:22:40,926 --> 00:22:43,522
of the conversations that are being had

459
00:22:43,522 --> 00:22:47,502
around this because there's a lot of

460
00:22:47,502 --> 00:22:50,094
deconstruction, disentangling that whole

461
00:22:50,094 --> 00:22:52,034
conversation that's happening both in just

462
00:22:52,034 --> 00:22:55,486
your average church member or people

463
00:22:55,486 --> 00:22:57,694
sitting in the pew or I guess stadium

464
00:22:57,694 --> 00:22:59,654
seating, whatever it may be, as well as

465
00:22:59,654 --> 00:23:01,942
the academic theologian scholar side.

466
00:23:01,942 --> 00:23:03,714
Right. So it's happening in a lot of

467
00:23:03,714 --> 00:23:05,814
spaces. But I think as this conversation

468
00:23:05,814 --> 00:23:08,566
is happening, I do often hear, and you may

469
00:23:08,566 --> 00:23:10,806
hear this, too, people will say, well,

470
00:23:10,806 --> 00:23:13,894
abuses of power have been since

471
00:23:13,894 --> 00:23:14,986
Constantine, like this has been going on

472
00:23:14,986 --> 00:23:16,780
for a while, which we study in church

473
00:23:16,780 --> 00:23:20,302
history. And I agree, abuse of power has

474
00:23:20,302 --> 00:23:22,094
always been something that the church has

475
00:23:22,094 --> 00:23:25,678
had to wrestle with. But there is

476
00:23:25,678 --> 00:23:27,786
something very specific about the

477
00:23:27,786 --> 00:23:29,422
industrial revolution. There is something

478
00:23:29,422 --> 00:23:33,882
very specific about treating church

479
00:23:33,882 --> 00:23:36,158
volunteers or staff as cogs in a wheel of

480
00:23:36,158 --> 00:23:38,114
a factory to produce, like you used the

481
00:23:38,114 --> 00:23:42,286
word fiefdom earlier, that, mixed with

482
00:23:42,286 --> 00:23:45,042
religion, has a whole other type of abuse

483
00:23:45,042 --> 00:23:48,086
of power and burnout culture. It's not

484
00:23:48,086 --> 00:23:50,374
that southern baptist churches forever and

485
00:23:50,374 --> 00:23:52,486
ever haven't had women volunteering to

486
00:23:52,486 --> 00:23:54,086
make casseroles. Yes, that's been going

487
00:23:54,086 --> 00:23:56,966
on. But there is something extra happening

488
00:23:56,966 --> 00:24:01,274
now when a church Christmas service is

489
00:24:01,274 --> 00:24:04,582
like literally having people burn out

490
00:24:04,582 --> 00:24:06,122
immensely in ways that they can't be

491
00:24:06,122 --> 00:24:09,014
available to their families or even find

492
00:24:09,014 --> 00:24:10,714
Christmas triggering in the aftermath of

493
00:24:10,714 --> 00:24:13,118
being on staff at a church. And so, yeah,

494
00:24:13,118 --> 00:24:14,846
explain a little bit about that particular

495
00:24:14,846 --> 00:24:16,880
part of the burnout culture that you've

496
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,026
seen. Well, it ends up putting such a

497
00:24:20,026 --> 00:24:23,678
heavy burden upon, like you said,

498
00:24:23,678 --> 00:24:25,346
volunteers, staff members, and they don't

499
00:24:25,346 --> 00:24:30,738
have a say in it. So nowhere do you find

500
00:24:30,738 --> 00:24:33,522
any construct in the New Testament that

501
00:24:33,522 --> 00:24:37,574
gives permission or even intimates that

502
00:24:37,574 --> 00:24:39,878
one person makes the decisions for

503
00:24:39,878 --> 00:24:42,674
everybody else. You just don't see it. And

504
00:24:42,674 --> 00:24:44,646
Jesus was working to nip this in the bud

505
00:24:44,646 --> 00:24:48,034
with his own disciples because they had

506
00:24:48,034 --> 00:24:53,310
grown up in two iterations of heavy power.

507
00:24:53,310 --> 00:24:57,066
They'd grown up under roman power. I mean,

508
00:24:57,066 --> 00:24:59,954
they were subjugated to it every day under

509
00:24:59,954 --> 00:25:02,686
roman oppression. And so they could see

510
00:25:02,686 --> 00:25:05,918
the symbols, they could see the soldiers

511
00:25:05,918 --> 00:25:08,830
in the streets all the time, right? So, I

512
00:25:08,830 --> 00:25:13,346
mean, they're under this power base then,

513
00:25:13,346 --> 00:25:15,134
the place that they should have some

514
00:25:15,134 --> 00:25:21,118
refuge or some sanctity under the israeli

515
00:25:21,118 --> 00:25:23,486
religion at the time, they're under this

516
00:25:23,486 --> 00:25:26,546
heavy handed priesthood that wields power

517
00:25:26,546 --> 00:25:29,534
and is full of corruption and is a

518
00:25:29,534 --> 00:25:31,078
constant threat to anybody that stepped

519
00:25:31,078 --> 00:25:32,866
out of the bounds. Then you also had the

520
00:25:32,866 --> 00:25:34,406
scribes and the Pharisees that are always

521
00:25:34,406 --> 00:25:36,854
trying to keep everybody in order as they

522
00:25:36,854 --> 00:25:43,002
saw it. So these guys, their whole concept

523
00:25:43,002 --> 00:25:47,514
of any type of government is power and

524
00:25:47,514 --> 00:25:51,566
okay, and threat and strong arming. And so

525
00:25:51,566 --> 00:25:54,990
when you see James and John's mom go to

526
00:25:54,990 --> 00:25:57,866
Jesus and say, hey, once you set your

527
00:25:57,866 --> 00:26:00,990
kingdom up, can my boys know some really

528
00:26:00,990 --> 00:26:06,834
good positions? Secretary of the Navy or

529
00:26:06,834 --> 00:26:08,706
be the speaker of the house or whatever?

530
00:26:08,706 --> 00:26:12,754
And the other disciples get mad, but they

531
00:26:12,754 --> 00:26:16,342
were jockeying for position, know, they

532
00:26:16,342 --> 00:26:18,982
were arguing about who was the best among

533
00:26:18,982 --> 00:26:21,970
them. And so Jesus finally, and Jesus is

534
00:26:21,970 --> 00:26:24,242
literally talking to them about his

535
00:26:24,242 --> 00:26:27,746
crucifixion, and they're worried, know

536
00:26:27,746 --> 00:26:30,054
who's going to get the best? Get the

537
00:26:30,054 --> 00:26:33,546
corner office. And Jesus at one point sets

538
00:26:33,546 --> 00:26:36,934
them down and says, hey, the Gentiles

539
00:26:36,934 --> 00:26:39,030
exercise dominion over one another. They

540
00:26:39,030 --> 00:26:41,946
exercise lordship over one another. And

541
00:26:41,946 --> 00:26:44,314
the word gentiles there, I mean, that's a

542
00:26:44,314 --> 00:26:46,634
metaphor. If it had been in one of the Old

543
00:26:46,634 --> 00:26:48,718
Testament prophets saying this, it would

544
00:26:48,718 --> 00:26:51,114
have said the Babylonians or said, the

545
00:26:51,114 --> 00:26:53,838
Egyptians do this. So gentiles a metaphor

546
00:26:53,838 --> 00:26:56,386
for the world system. And so Jesus saying,

547
00:26:56,386 --> 00:26:58,926
hey, I know you've seen it that way.

548
00:26:58,926 --> 00:27:00,866
That's what's filled your head and filled

549
00:27:00,866 --> 00:27:03,266
your imagination. And now you think, I'm

550
00:27:03,266 --> 00:27:05,106
going to start something like that. And

551
00:27:05,106 --> 00:27:06,886
then he emphatically says, it will not be

552
00:27:06,886 --> 00:27:10,806
this way among you. He forbids them. And

553
00:27:10,806 --> 00:27:13,846
then this is where he says, you don't get

554
00:27:13,846 --> 00:27:17,534
it. My kingdom is completely different, is

555
00:27:17,534 --> 00:27:20,666
antithical to that. The first will be

556
00:27:20,666 --> 00:27:23,786
last, which was what he was saying, in

557
00:27:23,786 --> 00:27:27,930
fact, in Matthew 20, right before he says,

558
00:27:27,930 --> 00:27:33,298
that is where we get the parable of the

559
00:27:33,298 --> 00:27:36,474
vine dresser and the one that owns this

560
00:27:36,474 --> 00:27:39,934
vineyard that calls these workers and pays

561
00:27:39,934 --> 00:27:41,598
one at the end of the day, the same that

562
00:27:41,598 --> 00:27:43,822
he paid the one in the morning, basically

563
00:27:43,822 --> 00:27:46,594
saying, equality here, he's saying, the

564
00:27:46,594 --> 00:27:48,194
first will be last and the last will be

565
00:27:48,194 --> 00:27:50,420
first. In other words, I'm flattening this

566
00:27:50,420 --> 00:27:53,826
thing. And he says, the greatest will be

567
00:27:53,826 --> 00:27:56,694
the servant. And then he punctuates it by

568
00:27:56,694 --> 00:27:59,350
saying, the son of man comes as one who

569
00:27:59,350 --> 00:28:02,006
serves. You guys have got it all wrong.

570
00:28:02,006 --> 00:28:05,538
This is not about power. This is about

571
00:28:05,538 --> 00:28:10,346
letting go of power. And so Jesus had to

572
00:28:10,346 --> 00:28:12,362
deal with this with the disciples from the

573
00:28:12,362 --> 00:28:16,682
very beginning. And the question we need

574
00:28:16,682 --> 00:28:20,202
to be asking ourselves is, why is it so

575
00:28:20,202 --> 00:28:24,430
very, so much among us today? And it's not

576
00:28:24,430 --> 00:28:27,306
enough for us just to deal with the

577
00:28:27,306 --> 00:28:29,562
symptoms. We have to point out the

578
00:28:29,562 --> 00:28:31,630
symptoms. We have to talk about the

579
00:28:31,630 --> 00:28:33,774
symptoms, but at some point, we have to be

580
00:28:33,774 --> 00:28:36,130
talking about the system, because the

581
00:28:36,130 --> 00:28:37,966
system is what's creating all these

582
00:28:37,966 --> 00:28:41,122
symptoms of abuse that we have and just

583
00:28:41,122 --> 00:28:44,114
doing the same thing over and over again

584
00:28:44,114 --> 00:28:46,846
or doing it better. The famous Einstein

585
00:28:46,846 --> 00:28:48,606
quote. Right? What's that? That's the

586
00:28:48,606 --> 00:28:51,594
definition of insanity. But Edwards

587
00:28:51,594 --> 00:28:54,834
Dimming said 50 years ago, every system is

588
00:28:54,834 --> 00:28:56,294
perfectly designed to create the results

589
00:28:56,294 --> 00:28:59,882
it gets. And so it shouldn't surprise us

590
00:28:59,882 --> 00:29:03,078
that we see this continual leadership

591
00:29:03,078 --> 00:29:04,966
abuse, because we have a system that

592
00:29:04,966 --> 00:29:07,370
protects the abusers and empowers the

593
00:29:07,370 --> 00:29:12,422
abusers, and it's all in the name of

594
00:29:12,422 --> 00:29:14,074
leadership, and it's all in the name of

595
00:29:14,074 --> 00:29:16,366
management. And in those systems that

596
00:29:16,366 --> 00:29:18,734
gives these leaders immunity or gives them

597
00:29:18,734 --> 00:29:20,222
the right, they feel like they have the

598
00:29:20,222 --> 00:29:23,554
right to exercise this form of power, and

599
00:29:23,554 --> 00:29:30,846
they don't. Absolutely, yes. And it

600
00:29:30,846 --> 00:29:35,678
crushes these whistleblowers. It crushes

601
00:29:35,678 --> 00:29:39,640
women in particular, because the system

602
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,630
is. There are so many good men in the

603
00:29:42,630 --> 00:29:44,806
world, but unfortunately, some of the men

604
00:29:44,806 --> 00:29:48,338
that made this system had a level of toxic

605
00:29:48,338 --> 00:29:50,106
masculinity involved in it. Systems made

606
00:29:50,106 --> 00:29:52,246
by men for men. But even men are being

607
00:29:52,246 --> 00:29:55,370
crushed in it, men who are speaking up.

608
00:29:55,370 --> 00:29:58,394
But because of the way social hierarchy is

609
00:29:58,394 --> 00:30:01,446
in this system, especially christian

610
00:30:01,446 --> 00:30:03,054
patriarchy, is embedded in all of it. And

611
00:30:03,054 --> 00:30:06,526
so, as we look at the system, you have

612
00:30:06,526 --> 00:30:07,902
this book that you've written, right,

613
00:30:07,902 --> 00:30:10,298
about the atlas factors. Tell us, without

614
00:30:10,298 --> 00:30:12,978
ruining too much of the book, why atlas?

615
00:30:12,978 --> 00:30:15,186
What is the Atlas factor? And how can it

616
00:30:15,186 --> 00:30:18,900
help us overcome these obstacles? Yeah,

617
00:30:18,900 --> 00:30:25,314
well, it's a metaphor. And I had, in fact,

618
00:30:25,314 --> 00:30:27,382
a book that came out about three years

619
00:30:27,382 --> 00:30:29,174
ago, called the starfish in the spirit,

620
00:30:29,174 --> 00:30:32,150
which is really about decentralized

621
00:30:32,150 --> 00:30:36,040
leadership. I had put a metaphor in there

622
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:39,514
about atlas, as we know immediately. You

623
00:30:39,514 --> 00:30:43,462
think about the picture of this hulking

624
00:30:43,462 --> 00:30:46,778
lone figure that's trying to hold up the

625
00:30:46,778 --> 00:30:48,966
world, right? Which was, he had been

626
00:30:48,966 --> 00:30:50,698
cursed by Zeus to hold up the weight of

627
00:30:50,698 --> 00:30:53,726
the world over his shoulders. And so I'd

628
00:30:53,726 --> 00:30:56,606
use that metaphor in this other book about

629
00:30:56,606 --> 00:30:59,086
what it's like to try to be a pastor, to

630
00:30:59,086 --> 00:31:01,470
be this solo, heroic pastor and

631
00:31:01,470 --> 00:31:03,246
everything. And I experienced this.

632
00:31:03,246 --> 00:31:07,358
Everybody expects you to be, to give 45 to

633
00:31:07,358 --> 00:31:12,734
50 fantastic talks a year. Who do you

634
00:31:12,734 --> 00:31:14,998
think you are? I mean, come on. Nobody's

635
00:31:14,998 --> 00:31:16,934
that good. So you're supposed to be the

636
00:31:16,934 --> 00:31:19,078
top theologian, the top speaker, the face

637
00:31:19,078 --> 00:31:23,602
of the church, the fundraiser, the

638
00:31:23,602 --> 00:31:27,222
marriage expert, the family expert, right?

639
00:31:27,222 --> 00:31:31,146
All this stuff. Who do you think you are,

640
00:31:31,146 --> 00:31:33,866
and who does everybody else think can live

641
00:31:33,866 --> 00:31:35,786
up to that? No one can live up to that. No

642
00:31:35,786 --> 00:31:39,340
one was ever called or formulated. You see

643
00:31:39,340 --> 00:31:42,698
no picture of that whatsoever in the New

644
00:31:42,698 --> 00:31:47,262
Testament. You can't come up with it. The

645
00:31:47,262 --> 00:31:51,514
thing is, even these pastors, so many

646
00:31:51,514 --> 00:31:53,390
pastors, they're being victimized by the

647
00:31:53,390 --> 00:31:54,866
system, too, because they're expected to

648
00:31:54,866 --> 00:31:56,946
be atlas. So I kind of had that in my mind

649
00:31:56,946 --> 00:31:59,682
for a long time. And one day, I had made a

650
00:31:59,682 --> 00:32:05,338
post on social media somewhere about

651
00:32:05,338 --> 00:32:07,522
leadership in the church being

652
00:32:07,522 --> 00:32:09,126
problematic. And I said something along

653
00:32:09,126 --> 00:32:14,194
the lines of, it's problematic because it

654
00:32:14,194 --> 00:32:17,250
disjoints the body of Christ from her true

655
00:32:17,250 --> 00:32:22,986
head. Jesus and I had a buddy that shared

656
00:32:22,986 --> 00:32:27,606
that post. I made his chiropractor,

657
00:32:27,606 --> 00:32:30,654
commented on it, and it came back to me.

658
00:32:30,654 --> 00:32:33,626
It popped up in my feed where he had

659
00:32:33,626 --> 00:32:37,982
commented on it. He said, oh, yeah, that's

660
00:32:37,982 --> 00:32:41,454
like supplexation with the c one and the c

661
00:32:41,454 --> 00:32:47,006
two vertebra, the atlas vertebra and the

662
00:32:47,006 --> 00:32:49,794
axis vertebra. Well, it triggered me. I

663
00:32:49,794 --> 00:32:53,620
was like, whoa. Because he said atlas. And

664
00:32:53,620 --> 00:32:59,602
so I started looking this up and this term

665
00:32:59,602 --> 00:33:01,906
subluxation. In fact, this particular

666
00:33:01,906 --> 00:33:03,926
chiropractor, a guy named Eddie Weller out

667
00:33:03,926 --> 00:33:06,294
of St. Louis, had written a little book

668
00:33:06,294 --> 00:33:09,274
called it just makes sense. And I ordered

669
00:33:09,274 --> 00:33:12,314
that book, and I was fascinated. I ended

670
00:33:12,314 --> 00:33:14,694
up reading four more books on

671
00:33:14,694 --> 00:33:17,834
chiropractic, Lori So there you go. That's

672
00:33:17,834 --> 00:33:21,694
how this wormholes will open up. So the

673
00:33:21,694 --> 00:33:24,602
deal is, there's a very limited group of

674
00:33:24,602 --> 00:33:27,274
chiropractors that practice what they call

675
00:33:27,274 --> 00:33:31,566
upper cervical care. So they only focus on

676
00:33:31,566 --> 00:33:33,842
the top two vertebra, the c one and the c

677
00:33:33,842 --> 00:33:37,220
two. Once again, the atlas and the axis.

678
00:33:37,220 --> 00:33:40,942
And the atlas vertebra is the first

679
00:33:40,942 --> 00:33:42,674
vertebra, and it doesn't look like the

680
00:33:42,674 --> 00:33:46,626
others. It's more that concave where it

681
00:33:46,626 --> 00:33:49,286
holds the brain stem. It's what gives your

682
00:33:49,286 --> 00:33:52,562
head the swivel and all that. But its

683
00:33:52,562 --> 00:33:55,286
importance is that if anything below it,

684
00:33:55,286 --> 00:33:57,454
if there's a disconnection or a

685
00:33:57,454 --> 00:34:03,286
disjointedness, a disalignment, then it

686
00:34:03,286 --> 00:34:06,186
shuts off the information that the brain

687
00:34:06,186 --> 00:34:08,794
is trying to send down into the body. And

688
00:34:08,794 --> 00:34:11,260
so he made this statement in his book. In

689
00:34:11,260 --> 00:34:14,602
fact, he said, we that practice upper

690
00:34:14,602 --> 00:34:18,542
cervical care, we don't snap, crackle, and

691
00:34:18,542 --> 00:34:20,558
pop all the other vertebra. When you come

692
00:34:20,558 --> 00:34:23,102
to see us, we just focus on these two

693
00:34:23,102 --> 00:34:25,342
because we believe if we get that

694
00:34:25,342 --> 00:34:27,106
connection right, get that alignment

695
00:34:27,106 --> 00:34:29,122
right, everything else will come into

696
00:34:29,122 --> 00:34:31,826
place. And then he named many maladies

697
00:34:31,826 --> 00:34:33,826
that he had seen in his own practice. I

698
00:34:33,826 --> 00:34:36,614
mean, everything from high blood pressure,

699
00:34:36,614 --> 00:34:38,966
believe it or not, some, in fact, my buddy

700
00:34:38,966 --> 00:34:41,414
that he was, his chiropractor has a rare

701
00:34:41,414 --> 00:34:46,742
form of cancer, and his t counts and

702
00:34:46,742 --> 00:34:50,634
everything have totally changed through

703
00:34:50,634 --> 00:34:53,162
the chiropractic work. It's just amazing

704
00:34:53,162 --> 00:34:55,414
what happens. And so he made this

705
00:34:55,414 --> 00:34:58,620
statement. He said, the brain is in the

706
00:34:58,620 --> 00:35:02,654
body. It just needs no interruption. Well,

707
00:35:02,654 --> 00:35:05,294
you start taking what Paul had to say

708
00:35:05,294 --> 00:35:07,802
about the head and the body. Just read

709
00:35:07,802 --> 00:35:10,080
Ephesians. Read Ephesians four in

710
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:12,426
particular, where Paul talks about the

711
00:35:12,426 --> 00:35:14,146
gifts that the Lord has poured out into

712
00:35:14,146 --> 00:35:16,702
the apostle, prophet, shepherd, and

713
00:35:16,702 --> 00:35:19,138
teacher. Which is not a leadership text,

714
00:35:19,138 --> 00:35:22,274
by the way. It's a body text. So he's not

715
00:35:22,274 --> 00:35:24,482
talking about professional ministry. He's

716
00:35:24,482 --> 00:35:26,946
talking about the body of Christ. You may

717
00:35:26,946 --> 00:35:29,366
be a second grade elementary teacher. You

718
00:35:29,366 --> 00:35:31,446
may be a plumber. You may be a doctor. You

719
00:35:31,446 --> 00:35:35,314
may be a lawyer. You've been gifted. The

720
00:35:35,314 --> 00:35:37,994
Lord has these gifts poured out into his

721
00:35:37,994 --> 00:35:40,874
body. But the problem is, when men try to

722
00:35:40,874 --> 00:35:44,282
act like Atlas, when they try to take the

723
00:35:44,282 --> 00:35:46,970
place of Jesus, some of them even call

724
00:35:46,970 --> 00:35:51,622
themselves the head pastor. You're taking

725
00:35:51,622 --> 00:35:52,738
Jesus'place. There's nowhere in the

726
00:35:52,738 --> 00:35:54,570
scripture where any man's called head

727
00:35:54,570 --> 00:35:56,894
pastor. Jesus is the head pastor. There's

728
00:35:56,894 --> 00:35:58,622
no place in the scripture where anyone's

729
00:35:58,622 --> 00:36:01,214
called senior pastor. There's one place

730
00:36:01,214 --> 00:36:03,026
where Peter says, the chief shepherd. And

731
00:36:03,026 --> 00:36:06,002
guess who it is? Jesus. That position's

732
00:36:06,002 --> 00:36:09,554
already taken. Guys, don't even fill out

733
00:36:09,554 --> 00:36:12,146
the application. We don't have the opening

734
00:36:12,146 --> 00:36:15,874
right now, okay? We never will. So we just

735
00:36:15,874 --> 00:36:19,282
come up with all this stuff that is so

736
00:36:19,282 --> 00:36:21,106
distant from the scripture, and it's

737
00:36:21,106 --> 00:36:22,694
antithical to the things that Jesus and

738
00:36:22,694 --> 00:36:25,894
the apostles had to say. But we formulated

739
00:36:25,894 --> 00:36:30,070
it, and we've amalgamated it through

740
00:36:30,070 --> 00:36:32,998
cognitive dissonance with our ideas about

741
00:36:32,998 --> 00:36:34,826
leadership, and we believe it to be true,

742
00:36:34,826 --> 00:36:38,022
and we just accept it ad nausea without

743
00:36:38,022 --> 00:36:40,702
investigating it and being good bereans

744
00:36:40,702 --> 00:36:43,406
and really taking a good look at it. And

745
00:36:43,406 --> 00:36:47,834
once again, it's the system. I'm sorry, I

746
00:36:47,834 --> 00:36:51,978
ranted right there. Oh, I love a good

747
00:36:51,978 --> 00:36:54,106
rant. This was the funnest part of

748
00:36:54,106 --> 00:36:55,426
podcasting, is hearing a good rant once in

749
00:36:55,426 --> 00:37:00,882
a while. Yeah, no, I'm with you here as a

750
00:37:00,882 --> 00:37:02,914
family who's done a lot of chiropractic.

751
00:37:02,914 --> 00:37:06,174
All five of us and my family have

752
00:37:06,174 --> 00:37:07,622
benefited from chiropractors. In fact, I

753
00:37:07,622 --> 00:37:09,574
think as a baby, the first place I was

754
00:37:09,574 --> 00:37:12,006
ever taken to was a chiropractor, even

755
00:37:12,006 --> 00:37:16,040
from my family of origin. And we do

756
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:19,154
understand the brain and how it does

757
00:37:19,154 --> 00:37:21,526
impact the entire nervous system. Having

758
00:37:21,526 --> 00:37:23,274
walked through a lot of therapy over the

759
00:37:23,274 --> 00:37:25,034
last couple of years from my own toxic

760
00:37:25,034 --> 00:37:28,742
work environment in Omega church,

761
00:37:28,742 --> 00:37:30,822
understanding the way our nervous systems

762
00:37:30,822 --> 00:37:34,250
react to different things. And it's

763
00:37:34,250 --> 00:37:36,606
chiropractic, it's amazing how it can help

764
00:37:36,606 --> 00:37:38,586
so many things. But I think that in

765
00:37:38,586 --> 00:37:40,826
addition to that, just having, being a

766
00:37:40,826 --> 00:37:44,366
woman who worked as a woman pastor as

767
00:37:44,366 --> 00:37:45,954
well, and having gone to seminary, the

768
00:37:45,954 --> 00:37:48,146
word study I did many years ago on kefale,

769
00:37:48,146 --> 00:37:49,694
the word that's translated head into

770
00:37:49,694 --> 00:37:54,180
English in a lot of the versions, we

771
00:37:54,180 --> 00:37:56,546
understand that word head in English in

772
00:37:56,546 --> 00:37:58,886
the United States in 2024 to mean certain

773
00:37:58,886 --> 00:38:00,434
things that it may not have necessarily

774
00:38:00,434 --> 00:38:03,202
meant, even in the original, ancient

775
00:38:03,202 --> 00:38:04,966
context. It could mean source, like head

776
00:38:04,966 --> 00:38:07,846
of a river. And when it's seen in that

777
00:38:07,846 --> 00:38:11,478
way, God is a source for us. It is where

778
00:38:11,478 --> 00:38:14,474
things are. We want that source to have a

779
00:38:14,474 --> 00:38:16,586
beautiful flow without any inhibition, in

780
00:38:16,586 --> 00:38:19,050
the way that a chiropractor would want

781
00:38:19,050 --> 00:38:20,698
everything signaling from the brain all

782
00:38:20,698 --> 00:38:22,810
the way down to the toes to have a very

783
00:38:22,810 --> 00:38:25,934
straight path without any inhibitions. And

784
00:38:25,934 --> 00:38:29,614
so, like you said, understanding that word

785
00:38:29,614 --> 00:38:31,934
in ways we might use it in business in the

786
00:38:31,934 --> 00:38:34,754
United States, and English is not what it

787
00:38:34,754 --> 00:38:38,820
was ever intended for to be in the church.

788
00:38:38,820 --> 00:38:42,930
So we're putting our current language and

789
00:38:42,930 --> 00:38:45,970
culture mix in with post industrial

790
00:38:45,970 --> 00:38:48,534
evolution understanding of that word in

791
00:38:48,534 --> 00:38:50,214
ways that it wasn't intended. That's why

792
00:38:50,214 --> 00:38:52,834
not only is language important here, but

793
00:38:52,834 --> 00:38:55,206
cultural exegesis is important. But I

794
00:38:55,206 --> 00:38:57,554
think that the average church goer, I'm

795
00:38:57,554 --> 00:39:01,146
thinking of white evangelical attendant

796
00:39:01,146 --> 00:39:04,122
that may listen to this podcast, or

797
00:39:04,122 --> 00:39:05,814
somebody, maybe in a megachurch in

798
00:39:05,814 --> 00:39:07,850
Singapore, who's been heavily influenced

799
00:39:07,850 --> 00:39:11,002
by maybe the teachings of Joel Olstein or

800
00:39:11,002 --> 00:39:12,858
different authors who have sold lots and

801
00:39:12,858 --> 00:39:14,986
lots of copies of their books in this

802
00:39:14,986 --> 00:39:17,006
evangelical industrial complex. Listening

803
00:39:17,006 --> 00:39:19,546
to this may cause a lot of cognitive

804
00:39:19,546 --> 00:39:22,094
dissonance, where one thing is being said

805
00:39:22,094 --> 00:39:23,998
here and portrayed here, and it's

806
00:39:23,998 --> 00:39:26,266
beautiful. And look at the beautiful

807
00:39:26,266 --> 00:39:28,640
Christmas pageants that happen and all

808
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:31,314
these, that what we often hear, and you've

809
00:39:31,314 --> 00:39:33,422
probably heard this, too, is look at the

810
00:39:33,422 --> 00:39:36,402
fruit. And so as you answer some of those

811
00:39:36,402 --> 00:39:38,902
questions that people might have, why is

812
00:39:38,902 --> 00:39:41,046
there such a disconnect between what

813
00:39:41,046 --> 00:39:42,706
should be happening and what looks like

814
00:39:42,706 --> 00:39:44,838
it's happening and what's actually

815
00:39:44,838 --> 00:39:46,854
happening? And how can people see those

816
00:39:46,854 --> 00:39:49,100
red flags when they're not meant to be

817
00:39:49,100 --> 00:39:54,220
seen? Yeah, well, that's a big, good

818
00:39:54,220 --> 00:39:58,358
question. But first of all, I think you

819
00:39:58,358 --> 00:40:00,540
described it really good there, Lori is

820
00:40:00,540 --> 00:40:04,350
that for the most part, it's all that

821
00:40:04,350 --> 00:40:07,182
anyone has ever experienced or known or

822
00:40:07,182 --> 00:40:11,018
seen. So when you grow up in this or even,

823
00:40:11,018 --> 00:40:13,966
let's say, you become a Christian at 25 or

824
00:40:13,966 --> 00:40:16,206
30, you're immediately put into this, and

825
00:40:16,206 --> 00:40:19,682
that's all you ever see. And I know as a

826
00:40:19,682 --> 00:40:22,258
young leader, as a young pastor, even when

827
00:40:22,258 --> 00:40:24,046
I would have these little red flags

828
00:40:24,046 --> 00:40:26,034
popping up in me, and I bet you experience

829
00:40:26,034 --> 00:40:28,286
this, too. You and Jason probably

830
00:40:28,286 --> 00:40:30,406
experienced this, too, you shove them down

831
00:40:30,406 --> 00:40:32,726
and push them down, because everybody does

832
00:40:32,726 --> 00:40:35,094
it this way and everybody's saying it, and

833
00:40:35,094 --> 00:40:36,886
all the ones that are writing the books

834
00:40:36,886 --> 00:40:39,500
and doing all the talking. So it must be

835
00:40:39,500 --> 00:40:42,522
me. I'm probably the one that's wrong on

836
00:40:42,522 --> 00:40:45,514
here. Okay? So my first thing would say

837
00:40:45,514 --> 00:40:47,642
is, no, you're not wrong with those little

838
00:40:47,642 --> 00:40:52,902
red flags. And when you go to the

839
00:40:52,902 --> 00:40:55,838
scripture again, you start seeing it. And

840
00:40:55,838 --> 00:40:57,726
one of the hardest things for us to do is

841
00:40:57,726 --> 00:41:00,826
to pick the Bible up and read it like

842
00:41:00,826 --> 00:41:02,846
we've never read it before. And that's one

843
00:41:02,846 --> 00:41:04,734
of the things I challenge people to do. I

844
00:41:04,734 --> 00:41:06,938
say, look, even get a translation that

845
00:41:06,938 --> 00:41:09,026
you're not used to. Pick it and read

846
00:41:09,026 --> 00:41:10,850
through the New Testament three or four

847
00:41:10,850 --> 00:41:14,098
times and see what you see. But look at it

848
00:41:14,098 --> 00:41:16,558
without overlaying, which is called

849
00:41:16,558 --> 00:41:19,094
isegesis, right. Rather than exegesis,

850
00:41:19,094 --> 00:41:22,022
rather than really going to the source,

851
00:41:22,022 --> 00:41:24,674
put all your tradition and your experience

852
00:41:24,674 --> 00:41:26,854
aside and try to read it like you're

853
00:41:26,854 --> 00:41:29,660
seeing it for the first time. Then compare

854
00:41:29,660 --> 00:41:33,738
that with what you see every day or every

855
00:41:33,738 --> 00:41:36,154
week in the church that you're a part of

856
00:41:36,154 --> 00:41:39,130
and see if they look alike. And

857
00:41:39,130 --> 00:41:40,894
unfortunately, a lot of times, they don't

858
00:41:40,894 --> 00:41:45,402
look much alike. So going back to the

859
00:41:45,402 --> 00:41:48,814
source is vital. And important. But I

860
00:41:48,814 --> 00:41:50,894
think that one of the big reasons that we

861
00:41:50,894 --> 00:41:53,554
have this also another factor that comes

862
00:41:53,554 --> 00:42:00,066
into play is that we've had about 50 years

863
00:42:00,066 --> 00:42:03,714
of church growth industry in the church

864
00:42:03,714 --> 00:42:05,954
and the church growth movement really?

865
00:42:05,954 --> 00:42:07,686
Well, it's really about 60 years. But then

866
00:42:07,686 --> 00:42:11,222
it started gaining traction publicly in

867
00:42:11,222 --> 00:42:14,754
around 1969, around 1970 with the church

868
00:42:14,754 --> 00:42:17,526
growth movement. And then that evolved, as

869
00:42:17,526 --> 00:42:20,090
I mentioned earlier, the Seeker church

870
00:42:20,090 --> 00:42:24,202
movement. And then the leadership complex

871
00:42:24,202 --> 00:42:27,082
started coming into play into it. So the

872
00:42:27,082 --> 00:42:32,046
thing is that really the prevailing. I'm

873
00:42:32,046 --> 00:42:35,102
doing a generalization here, but it's a

874
00:42:35,102 --> 00:42:38,702
strong majority. Is that the prevailing

875
00:42:38,702 --> 00:42:41,774
model of church and leader you see today?

876
00:42:41,774 --> 00:42:44,170
They grew up in this. Now, they were

877
00:42:44,170 --> 00:42:46,514
trained in all this. They went to seminary

878
00:42:46,514 --> 00:42:49,022
with no other model than this. All the

879
00:42:49,022 --> 00:42:50,546
leadership stuff and the conferences that

880
00:42:50,546 --> 00:42:53,602
they went to, it all comes out of this.

881
00:42:53,602 --> 00:42:57,042
And so there's really not been hardly

882
00:42:57,042 --> 00:42:59,062
anybody that's practiced. I'll tell you

883
00:42:59,062 --> 00:43:02,374
about the only notable christian group

884
00:43:02,374 --> 00:43:04,646
that has practiced something other than

885
00:43:04,646 --> 00:43:06,166
this. And I'm saying notable. So I'm not

886
00:43:06,166 --> 00:43:08,074
saying that they're the only ones, but the

887
00:43:08,074 --> 00:43:10,810
most notable would be the Quakers or the

888
00:43:10,810 --> 00:43:16,726
Friends churches. They operate in a

889
00:43:16,726 --> 00:43:19,814
flattened leadership. They operate as

890
00:43:19,814 --> 00:43:22,430
siblings, as brothers and sisters with

891
00:43:22,430 --> 00:43:27,150
equality. The term servant leadership came

892
00:43:27,150 --> 00:43:31,726
from a guy named Robert Greenleaf. He was

893
00:43:31,726 --> 00:43:36,130
a Quaker. Okay? So that was a big part of

894
00:43:36,130 --> 00:43:39,794
his background that helped him look at

895
00:43:39,794 --> 00:43:42,514
what leadership should be and formulate it

896
00:43:42,514 --> 00:43:44,970
from more what we would see in a New

897
00:43:44,970 --> 00:43:48,066
Testament way because of what he

898
00:43:48,066 --> 00:43:50,950
experienced among, in his form of

899
00:43:50,950 --> 00:43:53,762
Christianity. But when you are

900
00:43:53,762 --> 00:43:56,274
indoctrinated over and over and over by a

901
00:43:56,274 --> 00:43:59,830
false doctrine, then you look like the

902
00:43:59,830 --> 00:44:01,658
crazy one. If you're the one that's

903
00:44:01,658 --> 00:44:03,910
speaking against it, and that's that old

904
00:44:03,910 --> 00:44:05,706
adage, the day will come when those who

905
00:44:05,706 --> 00:44:07,958
are mad will think you're mad because

906
00:44:07,958 --> 00:44:11,286
you're not mad like them. The old british

907
00:44:11,286 --> 00:44:13,706
term mad, meaning crazy. And that's kind

908
00:44:13,706 --> 00:44:15,966
of what happens today. Now, I would say

909
00:44:15,966 --> 00:44:17,326
that there's been more of a breakthrough

910
00:44:17,326 --> 00:44:19,950
the last few years with the fall of all

911
00:44:19,950 --> 00:44:22,554
these notable leaders. I can talk more

912
00:44:22,554 --> 00:44:25,134
openly about it. I get more invitations to

913
00:44:25,134 --> 00:44:27,486
talk and teach and train and consult and

914
00:44:27,486 --> 00:44:29,746
coach on it, because finally we're getting

915
00:44:29,746 --> 00:44:32,450
to a place where a few people are going,

916
00:44:32,450 --> 00:44:33,838
maybe something is wrong with the way

917
00:44:33,838 --> 00:44:36,966
we're doing leadership. It's like, well,

918
00:44:36,966 --> 00:44:40,582
do you think, you think there might be. So

919
00:44:40,582 --> 00:44:42,646
there are starting to be more cracks to

920
00:44:42,646 --> 00:44:45,974
have the conversation now, thankfully, and

921
00:44:45,974 --> 00:44:48,646
with some wonderful books like Chuck

922
00:44:48,646 --> 00:44:50,746
DeGrot's work on narcissism in the church

923
00:44:50,746 --> 00:44:54,134
or you think about Scott and Laura

924
00:44:54,134 --> 00:44:58,342
Behringer and Tove and these things, the

925
00:44:58,342 --> 00:45:01,214
conversation is more open today than it

926
00:45:01,214 --> 00:45:06,366
was even ten years ago. It is. Absolutely,

927
00:45:06,366 --> 00:45:09,774
it is. We have a lot more understanding

928
00:45:09,774 --> 00:45:14,498
now and more people. I thank you. Social

929
00:45:14,498 --> 00:45:16,866
media, as terrible as it is, especially x,

930
00:45:16,866 --> 00:45:19,374
which has been a space for the hashtag

931
00:45:19,374 --> 00:45:22,130
church, two movement and spaces where

932
00:45:22,130 --> 00:45:24,180
especially women were not being listened

933
00:45:24,180 --> 00:45:26,630
to, where their voice can be heard by

934
00:45:26,630 --> 00:45:29,686
some, at least. But there's so much work

935
00:45:29,686 --> 00:45:35,622
to be done. So as we kind of sort of land

936
00:45:35,622 --> 00:45:38,230
this a little bit for people, is there

937
00:45:38,230 --> 00:45:41,238
anything else that you're hoping people

938
00:45:41,238 --> 00:45:43,906
will get out of your book or anything we

939
00:45:43,906 --> 00:45:45,382
haven't addressed that you think is really

940
00:45:45,382 --> 00:45:47,094
important for people to understand in this

941
00:45:47,094 --> 00:45:50,446
whole conversation before we kind to wrap

942
00:45:50,446 --> 00:45:52,190
it up. And also, at the end of your

943
00:45:52,190 --> 00:45:54,174
answer, I'd love for you to give people

944
00:45:54,174 --> 00:45:56,526
how they can find you, and we'll link your

945
00:45:56,526 --> 00:45:58,506
book and everything, the Atlas factor. But

946
00:45:58,506 --> 00:45:59,854
what's the last thing you want to leave

947
00:45:59,854 --> 00:46:01,566
people with? Is either a call to action or

948
00:46:01,566 --> 00:46:02,730
something you want them to understand, and

949
00:46:02,730 --> 00:46:05,186
then how can they find you? Yeah, well,

950
00:46:05,186 --> 00:46:07,794
the first thing I would say is just know

951
00:46:07,794 --> 00:46:12,546
that you're not crazy, that you're not off

952
00:46:12,546 --> 00:46:16,994
on what you're feeling. And if you are a

953
00:46:16,994 --> 00:46:22,054
church member that has suffered under some

954
00:46:22,054 --> 00:46:25,686
form of abuse, whether it be sexual abuse

955
00:46:25,686 --> 00:46:28,854
by one in power, whether it be power

956
00:46:28,854 --> 00:46:32,566
abuse, bullying, it seems like that

957
00:46:32,566 --> 00:46:35,802
there's narcissism in the leadership

958
00:46:35,802 --> 00:46:37,978
system or the leaders that you're among,

959
00:46:37,978 --> 00:46:41,050
if you're a staff member, if you're a

960
00:46:41,050 --> 00:46:43,750
volunteer. When I wrote the Atlas Factor,

961
00:46:43,750 --> 00:46:46,554
I was thinking about you, and I was

962
00:46:46,554 --> 00:46:49,326
writing this for you. First of all, to let

963
00:46:49,326 --> 00:46:51,086
you know that you're not crazy. Second of

964
00:46:51,086 --> 00:46:54,478
all, to give you some language to apply to

965
00:46:54,478 --> 00:46:57,514
it that maybe you've not been able to

966
00:46:57,514 --> 00:46:59,026
formulate in words what you're feeling,

967
00:46:59,026 --> 00:47:00,850
what you're seeing, and then give you some

968
00:47:00,850 --> 00:47:04,786
theology to back it up and to walk it out.

969
00:47:04,786 --> 00:47:10,786
And then the book gets really. I have very

970
00:47:10,786 --> 00:47:13,990
practical applications in there as far as

971
00:47:13,990 --> 00:47:17,480
systems that can be adapted for churches

972
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:20,026
that really do want to change. And I would

973
00:47:20,026 --> 00:47:24,266
say this. I think the majority of pastors

974
00:47:24,266 --> 00:47:28,714
out there are good people that want to do

975
00:47:28,714 --> 00:47:31,302
it right, but I think that their

976
00:47:31,302 --> 00:47:33,534
imaginations have been held captive by

977
00:47:33,534 --> 00:47:35,086
these systems, and they just don't know

978
00:47:35,086 --> 00:47:38,126
how to think outside those boxes. So I

979
00:47:38,126 --> 00:47:42,126
think that the majority are good. Even

980
00:47:42,126 --> 00:47:43,694
some of the worst abusers that we could

981
00:47:43,694 --> 00:47:45,662
name today, you look back at their

982
00:47:45,662 --> 00:47:47,294
history, you talk to the witnesses that

983
00:47:47,294 --> 00:47:48,802
were around in the early days. They

984
00:47:48,802 --> 00:47:50,798
started out good. They started out good

985
00:47:50,798 --> 00:47:52,866
hearted. I mean, if you listen to some of

986
00:47:52,866 --> 00:47:55,910
the quotes or go back to the Mars Hill

987
00:47:55,910 --> 00:47:59,798
podcast, you'll hear Mark Driscoll saying

988
00:47:59,798 --> 00:48:04,182
things 20 years ago that then in his last

989
00:48:04,182 --> 00:48:07,606
years, he was saying the very opposite.

990
00:48:07,606 --> 00:48:10,786
And that's one of the things about this

991
00:48:10,786 --> 00:48:12,826
addiction to power can really change you.

992
00:48:12,826 --> 00:48:14,794
And I mean David, that happened to David.

993
00:48:14,794 --> 00:48:17,146
So David was a man after God's own heart

994
00:48:17,146 --> 00:48:19,418
and he abused his power. So that means any

995
00:48:19,418 --> 00:48:23,054
of us could do it. That's why no man is

996
00:48:23,054 --> 00:48:25,530
made to be king. It was never God's

997
00:48:25,530 --> 00:48:27,840
intention. So anyway, the book offers

998
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:31,854
hope. We have a website,

999
00:48:31,854 --> 00:48:33,970
theatlasfactor.com. I can be reached

1000
00:48:33,970 --> 00:48:38,306
directly email info@theatlasfactor.com

1001
00:48:38,306 --> 00:48:39,746
theatlasfactor.com we do coaching

1002
00:48:39,746 --> 00:48:43,006
consulting We do all that kind of stuff

1003
00:48:43,006 --> 00:48:44,894
But hopefully the book can be some help to

1004
00:48:44,894 --> 00:48:50,630
get you started Thank you so much for

1005
00:48:50,630 --> 00:48:53,240
researching for pouring your heart and

1006
00:48:53,240 --> 00:48:56,054
time and soul into this book It's not an

1007
00:48:56,054 --> 00:48:58,666
easy book to put out there because it

1008
00:48:58,666 --> 00:49:01,286
requires you to dig deep into some things

1009
00:49:01,286 --> 00:49:04,540
that aren't easy to say And nobody wants

1010
00:49:04,540 --> 00:49:10,086
to be the person who shines a light on

1011
00:49:10,086 --> 00:49:12,166
toxic systems But you've not only done

1012
00:49:12,166 --> 00:49:14,380
that you've helped to see the terrible and

1013
00:49:14,380 --> 00:49:16,366
the beautiful and that there can beauty

1014
00:49:16,366 --> 00:49:18,446
beauty from the ashes But it takes work

1015
00:49:18,446 --> 00:49:20,586
and it takes opening our eyes So thank you

1016
00:49:20,586 --> 00:49:22,686
for opening our eyes Thank you for digging

1017
00:49:22,686 --> 00:49:25,066
into not only the research but theology,

1018
00:49:25,066 --> 00:49:26,894
theology helping us with the metaphor of

1019
00:49:26,894 --> 00:49:29,842
the Atlas factor and just framing it in

1020
00:49:29,842 --> 00:49:32,126
way way where people can know they're not

1021
00:49:32,126 --> 00:49:34,626
crazy they're not alone and we can link

1022
00:49:34,626 --> 00:49:36,066
arms and do this together And thank you

1023
00:49:36,066 --> 00:49:39,206
for not only writing the book but offering

1024
00:49:39,206 --> 00:49:42,658
to be available to coach and walk

1025
00:49:42,658 --> 00:49:43,958
alongside churches that want to get better

1026
00:49:43,958 --> 00:49:46,038
Thank you for this I'm sure it's going to

1027
00:49:46,038 --> 00:49:48,466
a a difference I've enjoyed getting

1028
00:49:48,466 --> 00:49:49,974
advanced advanced copy of it My husband

1029
00:49:49,974 --> 00:49:53,546
has also been in your pre release group

1030
00:49:53,546 --> 00:49:55,194
reading it and telling me about it too as

1031
00:49:55,194 --> 00:49:58,266
he's read it It's really good So I do hope

1032
00:49:58,266 --> 00:49:59,946
listeners will a a copy of it and that

1033
00:49:59,946 --> 00:50:01,226
you'll get some people that reach out to

1034
00:50:01,226 --> 00:50:03,226
you from this Thanks for this conversation

1035
00:50:03,226 --> 00:50:06,314
today Lance and just for being who you are

1036
00:50:06,314 --> 00:50:08,702
I appreciate the work you are doing Lori

1037
00:50:08,702 --> 00:50:11,406
It's hard brave work I appreciate it and

1038
00:50:11,406 --> 00:50:14,718
thanks for having me You're welcome I'm

1039
00:50:14,718 --> 00:50:16,746
going to have you stick around for our

1040
00:50:16,746 --> 00:50:18,210
difference maker community and ask you

1041
00:50:18,210 --> 00:50:20,594
another question But for today just thanks

1042
00:50:20,594 --> 00:50:22,786
for being on the show and hope the release

1043
00:50:22,786 --> 00:50:24,594
of your book goes really well Lots of

1044
00:50:24,594 --> 00:50:29,430
people read it Thanks One of the things I

1045
00:50:29,430 --> 00:50:32,454
appreciate about Lance is not only is he

1046
00:50:32,454 --> 00:50:35,702
man man who's researching and synthesizing

1047
00:50:35,702 --> 00:50:38,374
his own experience of anecdotal

1048
00:50:38,374 --> 00:50:41,340
information of in in the spaces he's

1049
00:50:41,340 --> 00:50:44,618
writing about and meeting lots of people

1050
00:50:44,618 --> 00:50:46,346
in in the conversations he's having where

1051
00:50:46,346 --> 00:50:48,838
he's trying to move the needle forward a

1052
00:50:48,838 --> 00:50:50,874
healthier healthier type of faith

1053
00:50:50,874 --> 00:50:53,326
community in these evangelical spaces here

1054
00:50:53,326 --> 00:50:57,326
in the US or just the church here in the

1055
00:50:57,326 --> 00:51:00,206
west and really globally his work is

1056
00:51:00,206 --> 00:51:02,302
global But since he's based in the He's

1057
00:51:02,302 --> 00:51:03,838
you know seeing a lot of patterns here a a

1058
00:51:03,838 --> 00:51:05,338
lot of us are seeing But one of the things

1059
00:51:05,338 --> 00:51:08,306
I really appreciate about Lance is he's

1060
00:51:08,306 --> 00:51:10,194
able to synthesize a lot of that research

1061
00:51:10,194 --> 00:51:13,074
and information and put it into words that

1062
00:51:13,074 --> 00:51:15,570
help us understand it to give language to

1063
00:51:15,570 --> 00:51:18,470
it And he also is a person who deeply

1064
00:51:18,470 --> 00:51:23,174
cares and listens to those who are on the

1065
00:51:23,174 --> 00:51:25,746
margins who have been oppressed by some of

1066
00:51:25,746 --> 00:51:28,186
these systems that he's been part part of

1067
00:51:28,186 --> 00:51:30,666
and that he's giving language to it in way

1068
00:51:30,666 --> 00:51:35,034
way that can help really set people free

1069
00:51:35,034 --> 00:51:38,426
When our souls are held captive by toxic

1070
00:51:38,426 --> 00:51:40,774
environments or leaders creating empires

1071
00:51:40,774 --> 00:51:43,742
and fiefdoms as he mentioned that is not

1072
00:51:43,742 --> 00:51:46,202
space space where our souls are safe It's

1073
00:51:46,202 --> 00:51:48,190
not psychologically safe It's not

1074
00:51:48,190 --> 00:51:51,326
spiritually safe And if you're listening

1075
00:51:51,326 --> 00:51:52,782
to this and you're in space space like

1076
00:51:52,782 --> 00:51:55,534
that today I hope that it has given you

1077
00:51:55,534 --> 00:51:57,406
some information you needed to hear some

1078
00:51:57,406 --> 00:52:00,494
hard truths Our brains are not wired to

1079
00:52:00,494 --> 00:52:01,966
handle cognitive dissonance very well So

1080
00:52:01,966 --> 00:52:03,726
if you're seeing these beautiful in in

1081
00:52:03,726 --> 00:52:05,186
your faith environment and you're also

1082
00:52:05,186 --> 00:52:07,718
seeing these really terrible things it can

1083
00:52:07,718 --> 00:52:10,600
a a lot of havoc on your brain your body

1084
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:15,526
your system It's not place place that's

1085
00:52:15,526 --> 00:52:17,158
healthy And so hopefully he's helped you

1086
00:52:17,158 --> 00:52:20,166
see some of those red flags Really I

1087
00:52:20,166 --> 00:52:21,606
absolutely urge you to pick up his book

1088
00:52:21,606 --> 00:52:24,890
the Atlas Factor It'll help give insight

1089
00:52:24,890 --> 00:52:28,620
into maybe why things haven't seemed right

1090
00:52:28,620 --> 00:52:30,826
And also I really appreciate the fact that

1091
00:52:30,826 --> 00:52:32,598
he not only synthesizes this information

1092
00:52:32,598 --> 00:52:34,446
but he's just real real straight shooter

1093
00:52:34,446 --> 00:52:37,214
Not in harsh harsh way but in way way

1094
00:52:37,214 --> 00:52:39,134
that's really caring and in in my

1095
00:52:39,134 --> 00:52:41,758
experience with him both in this interview

1096
00:52:41,758 --> 00:52:43,566
and in the speaker room and just

1097
00:52:43,566 --> 00:52:45,166
interacting with him at the conference in

1098
00:52:45,166 --> 00:52:46,914
Chicago which a real real delight to get

1099
00:52:46,914 --> 00:52:50,366
to know him So happy to introduce this

1100
00:52:50,366 --> 00:52:52,114
difference maker to you If you've not

1101
00:52:52,114 --> 00:52:54,834
known him before and hopefully you'll go

1102
00:52:54,834 --> 00:52:57,586
to his website order his book read it and

1103
00:52:57,586 --> 00:53:00,018
let us know because I would love to hear

1104
00:53:00,018 --> 00:53:02,134
how you're interacting with it And once

1105
00:53:02,134 --> 00:53:03,746
again he hangs out with us in the

1106
00:53:03,746 --> 00:53:05,606
difference maker community and we go a

1107
00:53:05,606 --> 00:53:07,366
little bit deeper about his experience

1108
00:53:07,366 --> 00:53:09,910
behind the scenes a a person who has been

1109
00:53:09,910 --> 00:53:12,150
consultant consultant in some of these

1110
00:53:12,150 --> 00:53:15,706
church environments who can speak into

1111
00:53:15,706 --> 00:53:17,306
what it looks like behind the scenes and

1112
00:53:17,306 --> 00:53:21,082
what the reality of that is and why a hard

1113
00:53:21,082 --> 00:53:23,866
hard call isn't easy but is necessary for

1114
00:53:23,866 --> 00:53:26,106
us to move forward in healthy healthy way

1115
00:53:26,106 --> 00:53:27,786
So if you're in that space or you know

1116
00:53:27,786 --> 00:53:29,226
someone who's in that space who could

1117
00:53:29,226 --> 00:53:30,526
really benefit from the conversation we

1118
00:53:30,526 --> 00:53:32,094
have with him and the difference maker

1119
00:53:32,094 --> 00:53:33,774
community please let them know about it

1120
00:53:33,774 --> 00:53:35,438
Once again you can join our difference

1121
00:53:35,438 --> 00:53:39,154
maker community for as little as 5 a month

1122
00:53:39,154 --> 00:53:41,058
which is less than the amount of money I

1123
00:53:41,058 --> 00:53:43,746
spent on my local coffee shop getting my

1124
00:53:43,746 --> 00:53:45,346
coffee this morning because unfortunately

1125
00:53:45,346 --> 00:53:49,718
I broke our coffee maker But yes So join

1126
00:53:49,718 --> 00:53:51,446
us in the difference maker community You

1127
00:53:51,446 --> 00:53:56,614
can go to ww patreon.com a a world of

1128
00:53:56,614 --> 00:53:59,166
difference and in in on this conversation

1129
00:53:59,166 --> 00:54:00,806
with Lance That's exclusive for our

1130
00:54:00,806 --> 00:54:02,902
difference maker community and all the

1131
00:54:02,902 --> 00:54:03,994
previous conversations that are available

1132
00:54:03,994 --> 00:54:08,854
to you there that are just categorized in

1133
00:54:08,854 --> 00:54:10,058
different sections now because there's so

1134
00:54:10,058 --> 00:54:12,526
many of them So when you join in you get

1135
00:54:12,526 --> 00:54:14,894
access to all these different exclusive

1136
00:54:14,894 --> 00:54:17,630
interviews and you can also vote in polls

1137
00:54:17,630 --> 00:54:20,622
where we want to hear from you Your voice

1138
00:54:20,622 --> 00:54:22,858
matters and your perspective matters

1139
00:54:22,858 --> 00:54:24,654
Obviously that's the point of this podcast

1140
00:54:24,654 --> 00:54:26,798
and we love it when difference makers

1141
00:54:26,798 --> 00:54:28,498
speak into what you want to hear Are there

1142
00:54:28,498 --> 00:54:30,334
guests that you want us to bring on Are

1143
00:54:30,334 --> 00:54:32,254
there topics you want us to cover So we a

1144
00:54:32,254 --> 00:54:35,186
a poll going on until I think February 25

1145
00:54:35,186 --> 00:54:36,994
where you can join difference maker and

1146
00:54:36,994 --> 00:54:40,374
speak into that Let us know You can also

1147
00:54:40,374 --> 00:54:42,694
do a free trial for a week to see if you

1148
00:54:42,694 --> 00:54:45,606
like it and then join if you want to But

1149
00:54:45,606 --> 00:54:47,894
I'd love to have you there in in this

1150
00:54:47,894 --> 00:54:49,670
conversation with Lance because it's a

1151
00:54:49,670 --> 00:54:52,166
very special one And all other other ones

1152
00:54:52,166 --> 00:54:53,658
I love them all It's hard to choose like

1153
00:54:53,658 --> 00:54:55,626
what's your favorite child I don't know I

1154
00:54:55,626 --> 00:54:57,366
love all our exclusive in in the

1155
00:54:57,366 --> 00:54:58,986
difference maker community and I love it

1156
00:54:58,986 --> 00:55:01,834
when new people join It makes me happy to

1157
00:55:01,834 --> 00:55:04,078
have new perspectives in in and you can dm

1158
00:55:04,078 --> 00:55:07,486
me on the platform you can comment you can

1159
00:55:07,486 --> 00:55:10,526
give us your two cent worth to help us a a

1160
00:55:10,526 --> 00:55:11,758
difference together bring your differences

1161
00:55:11,758 --> 00:55:13,374
around the table So pull up chair chair

1162
00:55:13,374 --> 00:55:15,054
with us in the difference maker community

1163
00:55:15,054 --> 00:55:16,258
would love to have you join us there where

1164
00:55:16,258 --> 00:55:19,950
we go a little bit deeper And I know that

1165
00:55:19,950 --> 00:55:21,234
this conversation can bring up a lot of

1166
00:55:21,234 --> 00:55:25,154
things for people And so if it has for you

1167
00:55:25,154 --> 00:55:28,854
just a a deep breath maybe several deep

1168
00:55:28,854 --> 00:55:31,958
breaths Look around and engage your senses

1169
00:55:31,958 --> 00:55:33,846
in way way that helps you be mindful and

1170
00:55:33,846 --> 00:55:36,390
care for your brain and your body Because

1171
00:55:36,390 --> 00:55:38,918
you matter and you are loved And I know

1172
00:55:38,918 --> 00:55:41,094
many of you are spreading love all around

1173
00:55:41,094 --> 00:55:43,290
the world by caring so deeply for people

1174
00:55:43,290 --> 00:55:45,818
and working hard for people And I just

1175
00:55:45,818 --> 00:55:47,626
want you to know that you matter today and

1176
00:55:47,626 --> 00:55:49,866
you are worth taking care of And when you

1177
00:55:49,866 --> 00:55:52,730
take care of yourself a a person who's a

1178
00:55:52,730 --> 00:55:54,190
difference maker you're taking care of

1179
00:55:54,190 --> 00:55:57,242
others too So please do that for yourself

1180
00:55:57,242 --> 00:56:00,686
You deserve to be healthy and you deserve

1181
00:56:00,686 --> 00:56:03,758
space to just be And I just want you to

1182
00:56:03,758 --> 00:56:05,646
know that you cared cared for today as you

1183
00:56:05,646 --> 00:56:07,346
listen to this podcast because it can

1184
00:56:07,346 --> 00:56:09,746
bring up some things for people So do take

1185
00:56:09,746 --> 00:56:11,950
care of yourself because you matter and

1186
00:56:11,950 --> 00:56:13,906
you're loved And as all of you around the

1187
00:56:13,906 --> 00:56:17,090
world are doing so many incredible

1188
00:56:17,090 --> 00:56:19,478
inspiring spectacular amazing outstanding

1189
00:56:19,478 --> 00:56:21,814
things or you're just loving the people

1190
00:56:21,814 --> 00:56:23,926
right where you are in your own home which

1191
00:56:23,926 --> 00:56:28,390
is also and and spectacular and amazing

1192
00:56:28,390 --> 00:56:30,870
Thank you for the work that each of you do

1193
00:56:30,870 --> 00:56:35,734
and for just being yourself spreading your

1194
00:56:35,734 --> 00:56:36,918
differences around the world in ways that

1195
00:56:36,918 --> 00:56:39,014
make our world a better place just by

1196
00:56:39,014 --> 00:56:42,330
being you Keep a a difference wherever you