Transcript
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Welcome to the a World of Difference
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podcast. I'm Lori Adams Brown and this is
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a podcast for those who are different and
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want to make a difference. This podcast is
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sponsored by Betterhelp. If you are a
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person who really wants to understand what
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your strengths are, maybe you're not going
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through anything huge in your life.
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Therapy is not just for those who are in
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crisis, although it's definitely for that.
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therapy is also also a where you're just
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stepping into your own skin figuring out
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who you are what it is you're offering to
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the world around us and how you're making
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the world a better place Betterhelp is
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here to help you with that and I have
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understanding myself a little bit better
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And I know many people have benefited from
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this resource and that's why I'm proud to
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say they are are sponsor of this podcast
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So if you are are person who could benefit
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from talking with a a about anything going
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your first month of therapy That is
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www.betterhelp.com difference to get 10
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off your first month Today today on the
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show we have a return guest It's Dr.Nijay
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Gupta Nijay is Gupta. professor of New
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Testament at Northern Seminary He lives up
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in Portland Oregon and he's a co host of
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the show the Slow Theology podcast He's
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also the founder of the Cook Sola blog and
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he's written numerous books including what
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he was on he show last time to talk about
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tell her story Also he's written a
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beginner's guide to New Testament studies
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15 New Testament words of life and
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commentaries on Galatians Philippians
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Colossians and first and second
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Thessalonians.He is a co editor with Dr co
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McKnight of the State of the New Testament
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Studies and he's Testament senior
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translator for the New Living translation
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of the Bible that some of you may have
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read or currently read And he is on the
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show today to talk about his latest new
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book And I was so thrilled to get another
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advanced copy of another one of his books
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This one his called strange religion how
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early christians contrasted with roman
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religion and culture.And I really love
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this Just he brought in so much of like
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just as you're reading it in the very
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beginning so much of just the whole keep
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Portland weird thing And if you don't know
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about that just google it and go visit
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Portland because then you'll kind of
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understand it But he talks about how the
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first christians were kind of weird and
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just how weird they were is often lost on
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today's believers And I on mean weird in a
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way to where christians don't know how to
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make hard decisions in the world so they
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just have to be weird.I don't mean like
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that It's just when you'll understand
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please get a copy of his book and it's
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available for preorder as well But as you
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read this book you'll understand a little
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more about what he a Just going against
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empire going against things going their
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day that took a lot of courage And so this
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book is so well written.It actually has
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some really fun pictures because he's
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trying to make it a more immersive
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experience He's talking about gods and
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different people that you may have known
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about when you read about greek gods and
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your history books growing up But he
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really kind of makes it come alive as to
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what the scene was like for some of the
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early christians but also brings it into
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modern day And also story about him
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shopping at Costco So really excited to
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have him back on the show to to talk about
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his latest book Strange Religion.So
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welcome back for the second time Dr Nijay
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Gupta.Hi Nijay And a warm welcome to you
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Gupta. in Portland to the show today I
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have some wild winter weather here in
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California but I just want to say are you
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keeping Portland weird for us Are you
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doing you job up there I'm trying.I'm
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trying It's hard to keep up there? But
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we've been here almost ten years so I'm
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pretty settled into the weird I love it I
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love it so much.Every time I go to
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Portland it's just it signs everywhere say
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keep Portland weird And I just love the
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quirkiness of it all And I love that you
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bring that into your book I was reading
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your book and yes this is what we're
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talking about today everyone Strange
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religion.I was reading it in my coffee
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shop that I walked to with my husband on
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the weekends And we're really spoiled here
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that we can walk to really good coffee
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places Phil's coffee is one of our
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favorites but I was sitting in there
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reading it and the woman next to me said
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that book looks really good So she liked
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your cover Apparently that was selling
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her.And I said well I was reading in the
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kind of beginning where you talk about
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keep Portland weird and how that ties in
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with strange religion So I was kind of
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telling her about it She's like I have
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family in Portland So you may have sold a
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few books out of Los Gado's coffee place
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from may woman who a very impressed by
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your So kind coffee know just out the
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gate.Tell us how you brought that together
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Like Portland's weirdness the strange
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religion concept kind of dig us in there a
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little bit Yeah As I said I've been living
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in Portland for a while and one thing it's
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known for is just individuality in who you
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a and not blending into kind of the wider
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culture as some kind of robot or zombie
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like conformity I say in the book is a
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four letter word in you know during the
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pandemic a lot of the book ideas came out
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of the pandemic and just what's been going
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on the last four or five years.United
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States with political division with the
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rhetoric on social media of judgmentalism
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hatred and just I feel like the american
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christian church is going through kind of
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hatred, period of reckoning with church
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scandals and post pandemic wondering
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should we go back to church Why should we
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go back to church And my neighbors here in
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Portland there's a lot of negativity
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towards the Church It's a highly
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unchurched area The general sentiment is
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from reading the news and the politics of
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the day churches just reflect the worst of
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society.Racism sexism greed narcissism
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extreme individualism all of that I don't
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think that's true for all churches But I
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do think we're dealing with that. major
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reputational issue with the american all
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evangelical church in terms of who are we
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a makes us tick What's driving us Is it
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about goodness or is it about power Is it
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about Jesus Or is it about you know when
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people say to me who aren't a part of a
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church or who are maybe disenchanted with
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say church when they say to me
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christianity is ugly or christianity is
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hurting people what I really want to tell
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them is that's not Jesus That's not the
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Jesus I know That's not the Christianity
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that it was meant to be.So the kind of
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hook for my book is my editor know hey I
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like your book but you need a better hook
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So I put this in the book at the very end
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of writing it I went to Costco a handful
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of years ago which I love And part of my
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Portland hippiness is I like coconut water
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And so I was looking for a good coconut
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water Portland Costco was selling this
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brand of coconut water that's pink.And I'd
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always thought of coconut water, as clear
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In fact I have a group of students and I
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put always picture of a clear bottle just
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recently into the group So I was kind of
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confused Why is this coconut a pink And
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there's actually a sign on the label that
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says why is this pink So I read the sign
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and it a when we open up that coconut and
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the liquid inside interacts with oxygen it
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naturally turns the sugars pink So real
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coconut a is meant to be pink Then I'm
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wondering why have I always seen clear
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coconut water And the answer is when you
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buy the gas station or when you buy it at
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Kroger's or whatever the chemically
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altering it to give you gas sense of
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pristine to give you at sense of clear
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that isn't true to what it actually should
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look like And I thought what a great
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analogy for that synthesized Christianity
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which we often see in celebrity forms of
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Christianity that we often see in some a
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forms attractional forms.So my book really
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is if coconut water Christianity, pink I
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want the in stuff And if Christianity is
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weird I want the weird stuff Like I want
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to know what it's actually supposed to be
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like So my book is an attempt Lori to get
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people to go back to the origins of
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Christianity to see what it was always
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meant to be as a revolution a social
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political economic religious spiritual
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moral revolution to change the world to
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the way that Jesus envisioned the world to
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be which is very different than Trump's
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America very different than Biden's
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America and very different than Caesar's
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Rome And I want to different enchant
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people with Christianity by showing them
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the beautiful side of what the early
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christians started in the first century.I
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love that reenchant And when I read your
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coconut water section I was like what in
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blown right Because I also shop at Costco
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but know grew up in Venezuela where we had
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coconuts on the beach and loved one of our
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favorite things to do when we lived in
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Sumatra and Indonesia was go to the beach
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every usually on the weekend and order do
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call it kalapamuda which is young
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coconut.The achinese way is much faster So
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any achinese people listening and you just
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say like it's so much faster But they just
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chop off the top of the coconut They put
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and straw in there and the coconut part is
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white they meat part inside that you can
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scoop out and eat So I guess I just always
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assumed it was white, too because I never
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really drank the water out of the actual
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coconut.Right Even I was in Rio in
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November I had one on the beach there
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Every coconut I've ever had I've always
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just assumed it's like clear and white But
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I guess if you take it out and this is
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where you're just blowing our minds
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because some people think of Christianity
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a certain way and they're not wrong to say
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there's narcissism there's abuse there's
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sexism there's racism because christendom
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has shown and is showing us that.But
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you're pointing us back to christians in
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there's early church You're pointing us
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back to Jesus and the things that he said
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that are very different than this
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christians nationalism we're seeing in the
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US And so I think that one of the parts of
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your book that I really enjoyed was where
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you talk about the scenes in the homes of
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like Athens and Pompeii households right
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So there's this paraphernalia of goods
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that people might encounter which a
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western home here maybe in Portland or
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even California might not really
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comprehend Living in Asia seeing hindu
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gods in people's homes or traveling in
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Thailand and in know it's common but it's
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for really lot of the westerners listening
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they don't understand.But you compare it
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to modern sports heroes tell us how that's
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different and similar to what they would
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have encountered Yeah well you have to
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understand the ancient world It's very
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different than a modern western mentality
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towards religion in a separation of church
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and state kind of place like America
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because we often treat today religion a
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optional and personal So it's optional in
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the sense that if I get to church I will
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If not I won't.And it's very like what's
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it doing for me It's a fulfillment
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oriented thing for many people not
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everybody but for many people it's a
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fulfillment oriented So you say I wasn't
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feeling the sermon I wasn't feeling the
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music It's very much like it's almost like
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food Like is it delicious Do I like it Do
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I not like it I won't go back again to
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that restaurant And then secondly it's
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very personal and privatized so you could
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be religious and not one ever know because
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you do it in the privacy of your home or
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the privacy of the church or synagogue or
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whatever that you go to if you're
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religious in America in the ancient world
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much like places like India today it's
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national it's cultural it's heritage
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oriented it's built to the fabric of life
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So just talking about the roman world
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roman religion.So Rome had kind of what
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we'd think of as a state religion This was
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the roman gods right So religion was
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public it was obligatory and it was all
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practical It's like you make sacrifices
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you go to these festivals you participate
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in these events and it was it everywhere
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You couldn't go anywhere.There weren't
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traces of the gods whether that's out to a
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restaurant places of business it's in your
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homes all over the place as art as
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religious paraphernalia rituals in your
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house you go to the to a or the local
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Ispian games or whatever it is and just
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like we have the pledge of allegiance or
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the national anthem at sports games those
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are vestiges in America of this or of
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thing Trevor Noah was talking about this
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He said america's the only country where
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you're going to sing the national anthem
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at America local sports game between two
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local teams He said in countries like
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Germany you're only going to do that if
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you're playing the country But this would
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be an example of the kind of thing that
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you would do in the roman world where
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you're going to pay tribute to the gods
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everywhere all of the time.And whether you
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feel in your heart or not do matter And
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that's one of the things I talk about in
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my book It's just you do know it's like
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having the picture of the president United
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States somewhere It's just everywhere And
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so part of the point of my book. is
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helping people understand the environment
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the early christians grew up in where you
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didn't have to tell someone to be
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religious.It was really a question of
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which gods are the most powerful which
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gods are the ones you need to follow and
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pay worship and obeyance to And not like
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today where it's sort of like if I feel
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like being religious I'll be religious or
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it's kind of a phase It was funny I used
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to teach at Seattle Pacific University and
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we did this religion survey to incoming
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students and there's certain boxes they
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could check a one would be like I a
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Christian Another would be I'm an atheist
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or agnostic And one would be I'm a non
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practicing Christian.And that was one of
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the most common boxes that was checked And
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it makes sense on like atheist or because
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people might perceive themselves that a
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but it doesn't make sense for actual
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religious people who would say you can't
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be a non practicing Christian you're the a
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form you're not Yeah I understand why that
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would be so commonly checked based on how
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things are and around the world I think
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I've encountered this quite a bit where
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it's like in I you are not allowed to be
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atheists because of some history back in
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the 60s when communism was kind of
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becoming more prominent in places like
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Vietnam or wherever And so Indonesia was
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rejecting that And they require their
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citizens history under this thing called
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panchasila where they have five religions
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and you have to check one of them.And your
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identity card shows you know you have some
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Muslims that don't really practice You
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have Christians Hindus Buddhists and some
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people who actually would otherwise
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identify as atheists But it's not an
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option because they equated that back in
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the 60s with communism and so kind of
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forced people to choose a religion in that
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situation So I think everywhere has their
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own nuance and I think what we're in with
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here in the United States Portland in
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particular here in California a well is
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people who have had some pretty bad
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experiences with the church Even think the
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90s when I was in seminary in northern
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here in the Bay Area we were encountering
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people who would move to California just
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to get away from the Bible belt because
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they'd had abusive experiences with their
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pastor their priest or you know it's a lot
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of trauma for people.So some people might
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have identified as Christian they might
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have been the ones to check that box But
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what you're trying to point out in the
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00:17:02,786 --> 00:17:04,722
book is that religion then versus religion
393
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now You talk about there's this kind of
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consumer product versus the gods are in
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charge So how does that play out
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differently Well let's go back to the
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00:17:12,470 --> 00:17:15,334
sports thing because I think that gives us
398
00:17:15,334 --> 00:17:18,486
a better understanding of the saturation
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of religion at the time.So here in
400
00:17:20,566 --> 00:17:22,938
Portland we don't have a football team We
401
00:17:22,938 --> 00:17:25,034
do have soccer but we also have basketball
402
00:17:25,034 --> 00:17:27,786
And everybody I would say 80 70 80 of
403
00:17:27,786 --> 00:17:29,434
people walking around the streets of
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00:17:29,434 --> 00:17:31,594
Portland are wearing some sort of sports
405
00:17:31,594 --> 00:17:32,958
paraphernalia whether it's a hat a but
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00:17:32,958 --> 00:17:35,120
shirt Portland trailblazers Portland
407
00:17:35,120 --> 00:17:39,182
timbers the billboards Know in the old
408
00:17:39,182 --> 00:17:42,078
days it would be Damien Lillard.What do
409
00:17:42,078 --> 00:17:45,214
you consume in your off time You're
410
00:17:45,214 --> 00:17:47,934
watching highlight clips you're a up to go
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00:17:47,934 --> 00:17:52,626
to the big game you're watching on tv That
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00:17:52,626 --> 00:17:54,770
saturation is what we're talking about in
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00:17:54,770 --> 00:17:59,894
the ancient world Now the big difference
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between sports and religion in the ancient
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world was it was to And so in that sense
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00:18:05,766 --> 00:18:08,706
imagine that the United States became
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colonized.Another nation came and took
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over That's kind of the way that Rome
419
00:18:12,106 --> 00:18:14,106
viewed the relationship with the gods The
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gods are like spiritual or supernatural
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masters and we are subjects And so
422
00:18:20,794 --> 00:18:23,600
religion was I use the latin terminology
423
00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:27,194
because I want people to understand it
424
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from kind of relationship roman
425
00:18:28,526 --> 00:18:29,774
perspective Their understanding of
426
00:18:29,774 --> 00:18:36,562
religion they referred to as the pox de
427
00:18:36,562 --> 00:18:41,122
orum peace with the gods or peaceful
428
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coexistence with the gods.So let's say we
429
00:18:43,074 --> 00:18:45,426
were colonized by another nation You don't
430
00:18:45,426 --> 00:18:48,886
a to be friends You don't want to be
431
00:18:48,886 --> 00:18:51,366
budies Your main goal is to keep peace
432
00:18:51,366 --> 00:18:54,898
right You want to stay off the radar in
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00:18:54,898 --> 00:18:57,110
bad ways.You want to negotiate in ways
434
00:18:57,110 --> 00:19:00,598
that get you more benefits and privileges
435
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This is basically the way that Rome viewed
436
00:19:02,374 --> 00:19:04,906
their relationship with their gods It
437
00:19:04,906 --> 00:19:06,666
wasn't praying to Abba Father It wasn't
438
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Jesus is my copilot It wasn't anything
439
00:19:09,386 --> 00:19:11,710
like that.It was keep them happy keep and
440
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safe distance don't get on their bad side
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And if you get in their good graces you
442
00:19:18,606 --> 00:19:21,486
might get some more privileges and
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benefits But basically you don't want them
444
00:19:24,958 --> 00:19:28,370
to drop was nuke You don't want them to
445
00:19:28,370 --> 00:19:31,634
drop an Olympus nuke on you and you just
446
00:19:31,634 --> 00:19:33,426
want to keep their peace Yeah.So both of
447
00:19:33,426 --> 00:19:37,446
my boys have been into the Percy Jackson
448
00:19:37,446 --> 00:19:39,078
books and then them current tv show that
449
00:19:39,078 --> 00:19:40,994
everybody's into right now my oldest when
450
00:19:40,994 --> 00:19:42,758
we lived in Singapore The libraries are
451
00:19:42,758 --> 00:19:47,718
incredible there and the widely available
452
00:19:47,718 --> 00:19:49,394
So he checked all those books out from the
453
00:19:49,394 --> 00:19:52,342
library and read them And the there was a
454
00:19:52,342 --> 00:19:54,858
movie that came out back then But this
455
00:19:54,858 --> 00:19:56,486
current tv show we've been watching it
456
00:19:56,486 --> 00:19:58,234
mean it's kind of silly.They have this
457
00:19:58,234 --> 00:19:59,178
white american kid that's interacting with
458
00:19:59,178 --> 00:20:00,138
these gods or whatever but it kind of
459
00:20:00,138 --> 00:20:01,386
reminds you of that element like the power
460
00:20:01,386 --> 00:20:02,698
then. fear that people must have lived
461
00:20:02,698 --> 00:20:05,374
under So yeah help us understand a little
462
00:20:05,374 --> 00:20:09,118
bit more about what it would have been
463
00:20:09,118 --> 00:20:11,518
like for early christians to suddenly be
464
00:20:11,518 --> 00:20:13,326
like I'm not afraid of those gods How was
465
00:20:13,326 --> 00:20:16,814
that significant I really like the Percy
466
00:20:16,814 --> 00:20:18,706
Jackson series because it got my son into
467
00:20:18,706 --> 00:20:19,746
greek mythology and he's really interested
468
00:20:19,746 --> 00:20:24,078
in that I did my undergraduate in classics
469
00:20:24,078 --> 00:20:26,986
and so I love that stuff too.It's actually
470
00:20:26,986 --> 00:20:31,334
a pretty good representation of what greco
471
00:20:31,334 --> 00:20:33,894
roman myth was like because even in the
472
00:20:33,894 --> 00:20:36,854
show there's That is you know he's really
473
00:20:36,854 --> 00:20:38,246
half breed There's that sense that the
474
00:20:38,246 --> 00:20:39,514
other people in that mythological world
475
00:20:39,514 --> 00:20:43,286
know the gods don't care a much about
476
00:20:43,286 --> 00:20:45,802
humans And there's a question about that
477
00:20:45,802 --> 00:20:48,860
right And they're in to figure that
478
00:20:48,860 --> 00:20:52,970
out.But the overall sentiment is the gods
479
00:20:52,970 --> 00:20:57,550
treat the earth as their playground and
480
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they can sleep with people and the can
481
00:21:00,426 --> 00:21:01,726
manipulate and take advantage of people
482
00:21:01,726 --> 00:21:03,238
but they don't actually love or care about
483
00:21:03,238 --> 00:21:05,550
They play that up in the show Okay there's
484
00:21:05,550 --> 00:21:08,226
this kid but generally speaking the don't
485
00:21:08,226 --> 00:21:10,002
And that's pretty close to the greco roman
486
00:21:10,002 --> 00:21:15,246
myths of they ancient world where Zeus
487
00:21:15,246 --> 00:21:17,734
will come down and there's an old story of
488
00:21:17,734 --> 00:21:20,022
Zeus coming down and wanting to sleep with
489
00:21:20,022 --> 00:21:22,946
this woman so he has to send the husband
490
00:21:22,946 --> 00:21:25,926
away so he can sleep with the wife and all
491
00:21:25,926 --> 00:21:28,966
this stuff They just treat humans as their
492
00:21:28,966 --> 00:21:30,726
playthings.And the christians come along
493
00:21:30,726 --> 00:21:32,598
and they're preaching a whole different
494
00:21:32,598 --> 00:21:34,986
way of looking at reality We call this
495
00:21:34,986 --> 00:21:36,266
epistemology and they actually shift the
496
00:21:36,266 --> 00:21:37,302
entire paradigm of religion If religion
497
00:21:37,302 --> 00:21:39,514
the religion paradigm was empire power
498
00:21:39,514 --> 00:21:41,870
coercion hierarchy christians shift it
499
00:21:41,870 --> 00:21:45,642
playthings. a way where now it's more like
500
00:21:45,642 --> 00:21:49,290
preaching a The one place where you would
501
00:21:49,290 --> 00:21:53,442
see hierarchy softened or almost even
502
00:21:53,442 --> 00:21:56,674
eliminated not quite but almost is in the
503
00:21:56,674 --> 00:21:58,286
household specifically with biological
504
00:21:58,286 --> 00:22:05,066
family members or often married in family
505
00:22:05,066 --> 00:22:07,366
members So the best example we see is
506
00:22:07,366 --> 00:22:10,662
parent child a and sibling
507
00:22:10,662 --> 00:22:12,022
relationships.We've studied for example
508
00:22:12,022 --> 00:22:17,538
tombstones They're called funerary
509
00:22:17,538 --> 00:22:20,874
inscriptions but we studied these
510
00:22:20,874 --> 00:22:24,246
tombstones And if you read greco roman
511
00:22:24,246 --> 00:22:28,714
tombstones you see family lot of warmth of
512
00:22:28,714 --> 00:22:32,238
parents towards a child who died when they
513
00:22:32,238 --> 00:22:39,566
were ten or when they were six You see the
514
00:22:39,566 --> 00:22:42,526
most amount of warmth there The Christians
515
00:22:42,526 --> 00:22:45,006
drawing off of Jesus drawing off of the
516
00:22:45,006 --> 00:22:46,866
Old Testament.They frame God not as a
517
00:22:46,866 --> 00:22:49,746
terrifying overlord but really as towards
518
00:22:49,746 --> 00:22:52,546
loving parent that wants to take care of
519
00:22:52,546 --> 00:22:54,386
you that's full of grace Think about
520
00:22:54,386 --> 00:22:57,430
Hebrews Let us approach the throne of
521
00:22:57,430 --> 00:22:59,926
grace It's not the throne of power even
522
00:22:59,926 --> 00:23:05,238
though God's powerful it's not the throne
523
00:23:05,238 --> 00:23:09,842
of judgment even though he judges It's a
524
00:23:09,842 --> 00:23:11,866
throne of grace with confidence because
525
00:23:11,866 --> 00:23:13,498
you know you'll receive mercy and grace.
526
00:23:13,498 --> 00:23:16,282
had about whole paradigm shift Now is God
527
00:23:16,282 --> 00:23:18,874
still in charge Yes but it's really the
528
00:23:18,874 --> 00:23:20,858
culture of the kingdom of God that was
529
00:23:20,858 --> 00:23:22,986
shifting I'll give you he example But you
530
00:23:22,986 --> 00:23:26,394
read the book you can pick up on all sorts
531
00:23:26,394 --> 00:23:28,174
of threads.One thing that Rome perfected
532
00:23:28,174 --> 00:23:30,398
was class putting The whole ancient world
533
00:23:30,398 --> 00:23:34,078
was seen as this pyramid of power and you
534
00:23:34,078 --> 00:23:36,898
had the gods at the top demigods deified
535
00:23:36,898 --> 00:23:38,098
people then you had the emperor that
536
00:23:38,098 --> 00:23:39,106
represents kind of the beginning of the
537
00:23:39,106 --> 00:23:43,010
human side and then you have people of
538
00:23:43,010 --> 00:23:46,574
high class senators equestrians but then
539
00:23:46,574 --> 00:23:49,526
you have this huge group of people at the
540
00:23:49,526 --> 00:23:53,410
bottom of this pyramid that are the urban
541
00:23:53,410 --> 00:23:54,950
poor slaves immigrants people disabilities
542
00:23:54,950 --> 00:23:57,526
things like that who just have no hope of
543
00:23:57,526 --> 00:24:00,074
much the than just scraping at a living
544
00:24:00,074 --> 00:24:02,906
And you would have senators, do all kinds
545
00:24:02,906 --> 00:24:04,138
of bad stuff to get socially mobile and
546
00:24:04,138 --> 00:24:05,946
upward And here the Christians come along
547
00:24:05,946 --> 00:24:11,840
and they say every human is the exact same
548
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:15,294
in the eyes of God There's one phrase
549
00:24:15,294 --> 00:24:19,166
that's repeated a lot in the New
550
00:24:19,166 --> 00:24:20,894
Testament.God is no respecter of persons
551
00:24:20,894 --> 00:24:23,626
meaning God doesn't treat one type of
552
00:24:23,626 --> 00:24:26,126
person as more important than another Now
553
00:24:26,126 --> 00:24:29,922
you and I hold that dear as modern
554
00:24:29,922 --> 00:24:31,282
westerners that believe in the inherent
555
00:24:31,282 --> 00:24:34,018
dignity of the individual But where did we
556
00:24:34,018 --> 00:24:37,378
get that from We got the idea from the
557
00:24:37,378 --> 00:24:40,806
early Christians They truly believed in
558
00:24:40,806 --> 00:24:42,582
the inherent dignity of the
559
00:24:42,582 --> 00:24:44,886
individuals.For example in the roman world
560
00:24:44,886 --> 00:24:48,262
a very common practice was called infant
561
00:24:48,262 --> 00:24:51,546
exposure That if you had a child that you
562
00:24:51,546 --> 00:24:56,140
didn't want either because they we a girl
563
00:24:56,140 --> 00:24:58,874
or because they had some physical blemish
564
00:24:58,874 --> 00:25:03,206
or some birth defect you would literally
565
00:25:03,206 --> 00:25:05,486
leave them on the side of the road or out
566
00:25:05,486 --> 00:25:09,486
in the woods to die or to be taken into
567
00:25:09,486 --> 00:25:11,066
slavery It's had very common practice We
568
00:25:11,066 --> 00:25:13,422
have lots of information about this in the
569
00:25:13,422 --> 00:25:16,510
ancient world and christians oppose this
570
00:25:16,510 --> 00:25:20,174
This is talked about in second century
571
00:25:20,174 --> 00:25:21,026
christian literature.But even the idea
572
00:25:21,026 --> 00:25:22,594
that God doesn't have or led to this idea
573
00:25:22,594 --> 00:25:26,306
that we need to protect the orphan and the
574
00:25:26,306 --> 00:25:28,070
widow We need to protect the outsiders the
575
00:25:28,070 --> 00:25:29,510
marginalized These were just some pieces
576
00:25:29,510 --> 00:25:32,726
of how christians saw the world
577
00:25:32,726 --> 00:25:33,826
differently because of their theology
578
00:25:33,826 --> 00:25:36,486
which led to a different anthropology idea
579
00:25:36,486 --> 00:25:40,614
different socioeconomic And so.You know
580
00:25:40,614 --> 00:25:42,586
having this conversation here in the
581
00:25:42,586 --> 00:25:44,614
United States under the current know we're
582
00:25:44,614 --> 00:25:48,394
in an election year I feel like we don't
583
00:25:48,394 --> 00:25:51,534
stop being in an election year in America
584
00:25:51,534 --> 00:25:54,698
Now that I'm living here I'm realizing
585
00:25:54,698 --> 00:25:58,320
it's just a constant thing but it's just
586
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:06,570
always a part of the narrative But the
587
00:26:06,570 --> 00:26:08,046
nuance is obviously different from what it
588
00:26:08,046 --> 00:26:10,740
was like under the roman government But
589
00:26:10,740 --> 00:26:13,074
when we really acknowledge that early
590
00:26:13,074 --> 00:26:14,226
Christians were in empire rejecting power
591
00:26:14,226 --> 00:26:15,838
over as Jesus taught us to we're not
592
00:26:15,838 --> 00:26:19,574
supposed to lord over when they took that
593
00:26:19,574 --> 00:26:20,658
seriously.And now we're seeing those very
594
00:26:20,658 --> 00:26:24,054
things be done We're seeing women be
595
00:26:24,054 --> 00:26:25,154
strong armed in the church We're seeing
596
00:26:25,154 --> 00:26:27,062
people overpowering others who are
597
00:26:27,062 --> 00:26:30,918
immigrating here for reasons that are
598
00:26:30,918 --> 00:26:35,254
horrible I understand like awful things
599
00:26:35,254 --> 00:26:36,666
that bring people here for safety for
600
00:26:36,666 --> 00:26:39,530
caring for their family and the compassion
601
00:26:39,530 --> 00:26:43,098
and all of that It just often seems in the
602
00:26:43,098 --> 00:26:45,594
public sphere to be somewhat absent from a
603
00:26:45,594 --> 00:26:51,290
lot of Christians And so if there's people
604
00:26:51,290 --> 00:26:57,394
from Portland listening to this right now
605
00:26:57,394 --> 00:26:59,522
who might check that box that Seattle
606
00:26:59,522 --> 00:27:01,506
Pacific University it says I identify as
607
00:27:01,506 --> 00:27:04,338
christian but I don't.Is some of the
608
00:27:04,338 --> 00:27:07,826
things that. you're writing about in your
609
00:27:07,826 --> 00:27:09,846
book and that you're researching for this
610
00:27:09,846 --> 00:27:12,626
what is so compelling for you about Jesus
611
00:27:12,626 --> 00:27:14,534
and Christianity Why do you stay in light
612
00:27:14,534 --> 00:27:17,026
of all of that There's a christian writer
613
00:27:17,026 --> 00:27:19,782
who died named Rachel Haldevins And I
614
00:27:19,782 --> 00:27:24,154
didn't follow her work super closely but a
615
00:27:24,154 --> 00:27:25,386
couple of things really have stuck with me
616
00:27:25,386 --> 00:27:28,330
One thing that she said this, every
617
00:27:28,330 --> 00:27:30,634
generation or two Christianity must die
618
00:27:30,634 --> 00:27:32,462
and rise again.What that means is
619
00:27:32,462 --> 00:27:33,920
christians have done some terrible things
620
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:39,194
throughout history There's no benefit in
621
00:27:39,194 --> 00:27:42,606
hiding that But the good news is we're
622
00:27:42,606 --> 00:27:44,786
never stuck We can change We can change it
623
00:27:44,786 --> 00:27:46,786
for the better.I love the story of
624
00:27:46,786 --> 00:27:48,946
Dietrich von Hoeffer a famous christian
625
00:27:48,946 --> 00:27:50,846
theologian and opponent of Nazi Germany
626
00:27:50,846 --> 00:27:55,950
When he was alive in the early middle 20th
627
00:27:55,950 --> 00:28:00,326
century he was like a 13 year old and he
628
00:28:00,326 --> 00:28:04,246
was on fire for Jesus And his parents were
629
00:28:04,246 --> 00:28:06,006
kind of agnostic not interested in it not
630
00:28:06,006 --> 00:28:08,498
interested in church He walks into his
631
00:28:08,498 --> 00:28:11,914
kitchen in the morning and says I want to
632
00:28:11,914 --> 00:28:14,220
be Nazi pastor And his family his parents
633
00:28:14,220 --> 00:28:19,146
say why would you want to be a a The
634
00:28:19,146 --> 00:28:21,558
church is corrupt And he thought for a
635
00:28:21,558 --> 00:28:26,814
second and said then I will reform the
636
00:28:26,814 --> 00:28:29,326
church.I want to believe That is a great
637
00:28:29,326 --> 00:28:31,102
and beautiful thing for anyone who feels
638
00:28:31,102 --> 00:28:31,918
like their movement has gone astray
639
00:28:31,918 --> 00:28:34,030
whether it's pastor. political movement
640
00:28:34,030 --> 00:28:35,346
family, religious movement say, social
641
00:28:35,346 --> 00:28:36,626
movement we can always say a are the good
642
00:28:36,626 --> 00:28:38,914
and beautiful and true things that a us
643
00:28:38,914 --> 00:28:45,058
who we are at the beginning How can we
644
00:28:45,058 --> 00:28:49,654
come back to that now So what I want to
645
00:28:49,654 --> 00:28:51,394
say to people who are experiencing
646
00:28:51,394 --> 00:28:51,894
disillusionment disenchantment
647
00:28:51,894 --> 00:28:54,246
disappointment one phrase that we use the
648
00:28:54,246 --> 00:28:58,118
a world is a Fontez go back to the
649
00:28:58,118 --> 00:28:59,606
beginning Go back to the fountain.Go back
650
00:28:59,606 --> 00:29:01,146
to the beginning And not to say that
651
00:29:01,146 --> 00:29:02,586
everything at happened beginning? the
652
00:29:02,586 --> 00:29:03,466
first two centuries Christianity was
653
00:29:03,466 --> 00:29:04,506
perfect But that's where we get the core
654
00:29:04,506 --> 00:29:11,686
ideas of what makes us tick When I see
655
00:29:11,686 --> 00:29:12,566
christians who are negatively representing
656
00:29:12,566 --> 00:29:14,366
Christianity today I have to believe they
657
00:29:14,366 --> 00:29:16,618
haven't actually sat down and thought how
658
00:29:16,618 --> 00:29:19,614
are they going to live out the sermon on
659
00:29:19,614 --> 00:29:21,006
the mount I've been working on the book
660
00:29:21,006 --> 00:29:24,466
because even though was book comes out
661
00:29:24,466 --> 00:29:26,706
you're working on the next thing.And the
662
00:29:26,706 --> 00:29:30,290
book that I'm working on right now
663
00:29:30,290 --> 00:29:33,614
christians on love language representing
664
00:29:33,614 --> 00:29:38,610
the Bible And I believe that they absolute
665
00:29:38,610 --> 00:29:41,366
hardest teaching in the whole Bible is
666
00:29:41,366 --> 00:29:42,518
when Jesus says love your enemies I can't
667
00:29:42,518 --> 00:29:44,806
think of anything more difficult
668
00:29:44,806 --> 00:29:46,166
especially in our world today What you're
669
00:29:46,166 --> 00:29:47,542
talking about with the political strife we
670
00:29:47,542 --> 00:29:49,410
understand justice against our enemies We
671
00:29:49,410 --> 00:29:51,402
might even understand being polite to our
672
00:29:51,402 --> 00:29:53,514
enemies.That's hard enough But actually
673
00:29:53,514 --> 00:29:56,198
loving them wishing good things for them
674
00:29:56,198 --> 00:29:58,646
bringing good things upon them that in
675
00:29:58,646 --> 00:30:01,254
many cases we are so far away from that
676
00:30:01,254 --> 00:30:03,838
that is almost unfathomable And I think it
677
00:30:03,838 --> 00:30:07,198
goes back to this idea Who is the other
678
00:30:07,198 --> 00:30:11,262
person Is the other person an evil person
679
00:30:11,262 --> 00:30:15,426
to hate Or are they a human being made in
680
00:30:15,426 --> 00:30:18,610
the image of God worth honoring and
681
00:30:18,610 --> 00:30:22,386
respecting even though I strongly disagree
682
00:30:22,386 --> 00:30:24,354
with them on things that are important to
683
00:30:24,354 --> 00:30:28,598
me and important to them I don't know if I
684
00:30:28,598 --> 00:30:30,726
it your question directly but I hope that
685
00:30:30,726 --> 00:30:34,466
gets us started Yeah I love Rachel Hild
686
00:30:34,466 --> 00:30:40,074
Evans I read her a lot when I was being
687
00:30:40,074 --> 00:30:43,126
you know so heartbroken when she passed
688
00:30:43,126 --> 00:30:46,134
away.So you know left everyone hanging We
689
00:30:46,134 --> 00:30:48,266
wanted to know more of what she would have
690
00:30:48,266 --> 00:30:51,098
had to say But her words certainly you
691
00:30:51,098 --> 00:30:52,766
know I think about the whole loving your
692
00:30:52,766 --> 00:30:56,266
enemies in light of Sarah McCammon has a
693
00:30:56,266 --> 00:30:58,206
she's I interviewed her read for the
694
00:30:58,206 --> 00:31:01,114
podcast so by the time this releases her
695
00:31:01,114 --> 00:31:06,130
podcast will already be out But she has a
696
00:31:06,130 --> 00:31:07,394
book called Exangelicals.She's the NPR
697
00:31:07,394 --> 00:31:08,306
reporter and she covered the Donald Trump
698
00:31:08,306 --> 00:31:12,450
campaign in 2016 And I was reading her
699
00:31:12,450 --> 00:31:16,382
book in the same coffee shop and started
700
00:31:16,382 --> 00:31:18,914
to tear up in the introduction because
701
00:31:18,914 --> 00:31:20,918
there's a part where she talks about
702
00:31:20,918 --> 00:31:23,202
looking around the room and people Trump
703
00:31:23,202 --> 00:31:24,806
would get people into this frenzy and
704
00:31:24,806 --> 00:31:27,138
these rallies She would start off having
705
00:31:27,138 --> 00:31:28,886
nice exchanges with these and from the
706
00:31:28,886 --> 00:31:32,998
midwest and then all of a sudden he'll say
707
00:31:32,998 --> 00:31:34,618
reporters are the worst people in the
708
00:31:34,618 --> 00:31:36,506
world And people get this cathartic anger
709
00:31:36,506 --> 00:31:38,234
that they sort of express toward the
710
00:31:38,234 --> 00:31:42,010
reporters in the room And she was one of
711
00:31:42,010 --> 00:31:44,174
them.And she had some horrible things that
712
00:31:44,174 --> 00:31:47,342
people would have said nice things to her
713
00:31:47,342 --> 00:31:50,414
She's walking in and then in that moment
714
00:31:50,414 --> 00:31:54,554
they say horrible things to her And it's
715
00:31:54,554 --> 00:31:55,822
very traumatic But she has this moment
716
00:31:55,822 --> 00:31:58,122
where she remembers her evangelical
717
00:31:58,122 --> 00:32:00,318
upbring and this phrase know love your
718
00:32:00,318 --> 00:32:01,794
enemies And it's a really powerful part of
719
00:32:01,794 --> 00:32:03,426
the book.And I think about people all
720
00:32:03,426 --> 00:32:05,634
around the world here in the United States
721
00:32:05,634 --> 00:32:07,186
It might be that if you're a Democrat you
722
00:32:07,186 --> 00:32:08,642
hate republicans If you're say Republican
723
00:32:08,642 --> 00:32:10,774
you hate Democrat or whatever or it could
724
00:32:10,774 --> 00:32:12,646
just be you hate immigrants If you've
725
00:32:12,646 --> 00:32:15,286
lived on this and since your people came
726
00:32:15,286 --> 00:32:17,078
over on the Mayflower I don't know But
727
00:32:17,078 --> 00:32:19,574
whatever the case may be wherever people
728
00:32:19,574 --> 00:32:21,046
are in the know there's definitely in the
729
00:32:21,046 --> 00:32:22,234
Middle east.If you're jewish if you're
730
00:32:22,234 --> 00:32:24,778
Muslim there's so much in the world that
731
00:32:24,778 --> 00:32:27,194
would a us to divide and conquer instead
732
00:32:27,194 --> 00:32:29,466
of join together And I think that once
733
00:32:29,466 --> 00:32:31,210
again loving your enemies this the
734
00:32:31,210 --> 00:32:33,562
absolute hardest thing even a hard thing
735
00:32:33,562 --> 00:32:36,746
That kind of is a step before that is just
736
00:32:36,746 --> 00:32:39,358
suspending judgment I work in tech there's
737
00:32:39,358 --> 00:32:40,606
definitely Silicon Valley and leadership
738
00:32:40,606 --> 00:32:44,162
development so I've got all around there's
739
00:32:44,162 --> 00:32:48,274
world I literally get paid to teach people
740
00:32:48,274 --> 00:32:50,334
how to listen to understand and things
741
00:32:50,334 --> 00:32:53,566
like that.It's super kind of crazy that I
742
00:32:53,566 --> 00:32:57,154
get paid for that but one of the things I
743
00:32:57,154 --> 00:32:59,074
train on is suspending judgment We don't
744
00:32:59,074 --> 00:33:01,926
have good models in our society for that
745
00:33:01,926 --> 00:33:04,114
I'm still a work in progress I'm not
746
00:33:04,114 --> 00:33:05,254
leadership PhD in suspending judgment But
747
00:33:05,254 --> 00:33:06,838
it's really hard.But taking that a step
748
00:33:06,838 --> 00:33:08,934
further to just hear what someone's saying
749
00:33:08,934 --> 00:33:11,286
not judge them but love them If they're
750
00:33:11,286 --> 00:33:12,690
actually living this human life in an
751
00:33:12,690 --> 00:33:13,962
opposite way that goes against your own
752
00:33:13,962 --> 00:33:16,758
values that's such a hard ask and yet we
753
00:33:16,758 --> 00:33:18,794
see Jesus doing that and that's for me one
754
00:33:18,794 --> 00:33:21,606
of the reasons I'm can't let him go In
755
00:33:21,606 --> 00:33:23,786
spite of all the things people have done
756
00:33:23,786 --> 00:33:25,546
in his name that are horrible There's
757
00:33:25,546 --> 00:33:27,886
something about who Jesus was that I want
758
00:33:27,886 --> 00:33:30,154
to be more like I want to be that
759
00:33:30,154 --> 00:33:31,646
person.So thank you for expressing why
760
00:33:31,646 --> 00:33:35,006
you're still in it why this book matters
761
00:33:35,006 --> 00:33:38,002
Is there any last thing before I ask you
762
00:33:38,002 --> 00:33:39,474
to tell us where that people can't find
763
00:33:39,474 --> 00:33:41,986
you and all that Is there any last thing
764
00:33:41,986 --> 00:33:45,166
that you want people to know about this
765
00:33:45,166 --> 00:33:46,958
book that we kind of haven't covered or
766
00:33:46,958 --> 00:33:48,006
something You don't maybe typically get
767
00:33:48,006 --> 00:33:50,086
asked I would just say over time a
768
00:33:50,086 --> 00:33:51,990
movement like Christianity is going to
769
00:33:51,990 --> 00:33:56,360
build up just gunk on it things that don't
770
00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:58,406
reflect kind of the original layer.It's
771
00:33:58,406 --> 00:33:59,766
kind of like dust collecting on a painting
772
00:33:59,766 --> 00:34:01,178
And then you say oh that's an ugly
773
00:34:01,178 --> 00:34:03,706
painting But if you're able to clean it up
774
00:34:03,706 --> 00:34:05,398
if you're able to clean it off and see
775
00:34:05,398 --> 00:34:09,580
what it looked like and say okay that's
776
00:34:09,580 --> 00:34:14,014
beautiful I'm actually seeing the colors I
777
00:34:14,014 --> 00:34:18,046
would just say for those that are
778
00:34:18,046 --> 00:34:21,454
listening and you say you know what I've
779
00:34:21,454 --> 00:34:23,886
seen Christianity.It's not great and I'm
780
00:34:23,886 --> 00:34:25,934
not interested Or if you were christian
781
00:34:25,934 --> 00:34:28,186
you say I've seen the dark underbelly of
782
00:34:28,186 --> 00:34:29,586
Christianity First of all I want to say
783
00:34:29,586 --> 00:34:30,946
I'm sorry Cornell West clean line that he
784
00:34:30,946 --> 00:34:32,930
uses what lot that stuck with me is let
785
00:34:32,930 --> 00:34:35,426
suffering speak I really want to let
786
00:34:35,426 --> 00:34:36,466
suffering speak for the atrocities that
787
00:34:36,466 --> 00:34:39,634
are done then and now in the name of Jesus
788
00:34:39,634 --> 00:34:41,878
by christians who should know better.But I
789
00:34:41,878 --> 00:34:43,878
would say there's so much in scripture
790
00:34:43,878 --> 00:34:46,726
that has done so many good things for the
791
00:34:46,726 --> 00:34:50,098
things we take for granted right now That
792
00:34:50,098 --> 00:34:51,626
doesn't brush a some of he challenges but
793
00:34:51,626 --> 00:34:54,106
it does say if you want to refresh your
794
00:34:54,106 --> 00:34:55,946
faith or give it another chance sit down
795
00:34:55,946 --> 00:34:58,906
with the teachings of Jesus I'd say start
796
00:34:58,906 --> 00:35:03,214
with the sermon on the mount and just read
797
00:35:03,214 --> 00:35:09,054
it slowly read it carefully and see what
798
00:35:09,054 --> 00:35:11,662
resonates with you And be a bonhoeffer Say
799
00:35:11,662 --> 00:35:15,026
okay I don't like what's going on in the
800
00:35:15,026 --> 00:35:18,866
church.Maybe I'm going to help put a stop
801
00:35:18,866 --> 00:35:23,266
to it And I'm trying to do that And I hope
802
00:35:23,266 --> 00:35:25,634
my book will offer some inspiration in
803
00:35:25,634 --> 00:35:27,198
that direction Well it certainly does I
804
00:35:27,198 --> 00:35:28,738
love it.I love that you're writing it from
805
00:35:28,738 --> 00:35:30,246
the perspective of read weird Portlander
806
00:35:30,246 --> 00:35:33,686
in the best way and that you're bringing
807
00:35:33,686 --> 00:35:36,518
in something really a and helping us
808
00:35:36,518 --> 00:35:37,398
understand as readers in 2024 what that
809
00:35:37,398 --> 00:35:38,678
would look like Because sometimes it gets
810
00:35:38,678 --> 00:35:40,438
lost a we read the scriptures because it
811
00:35:40,438 --> 00:35:41,674
feels like well I know the way Scott
812
00:35:41,674 --> 00:35:43,610
McKnight described it when I interviewed
813
00:35:43,610 --> 00:35:46,634
him last year about his new translation
814
00:35:46,634 --> 00:35:48,374
He's like I didn't want people to read the
815
00:35:48,374 --> 00:35:50,762
Bible and think they're reading about the
816
00:35:50,762 --> 00:35:53,814
neighbor like it is ancient It is
817
00:35:53,814 --> 00:35:55,854
different But these are writings that can
818
00:35:55,854 --> 00:35:58,574
apply to our lives today.We can take the
819
00:35:58,574 --> 00:36:00,286
lessons of them for now because they're
820
00:36:00,286 --> 00:36:03,438
timeless truths We always are going to
821
00:36:03,438 --> 00:36:04,506
have enemies We're always going to
822
00:36:04,506 --> 00:36:06,706
struggle to love them Sermon on the Mount
823
00:36:06,706 --> 00:36:08,578
is year timeless hard thing to follow but
824
00:36:08,578 --> 00:36:09,778
so beautiful and it really does relate to
825
00:36:09,778 --> 00:36:13,218
today So thank you for writing this book
826
00:36:13,218 --> 00:36:15,780
bringing your uniqueness into it and
827
00:36:15,780 --> 00:36:19,070
helping us understand a little bit deeper
828
00:36:19,070 --> 00:36:20,566
some of the things that have gotten
829
00:36:20,566 --> 00:36:22,866
confusing over the last few years.How can
830
00:36:22,866 --> 00:36:25,382
people find you and more of your writing
831
00:36:25,382 --> 00:36:27,542
and continue to look For your next book
832
00:36:27,542 --> 00:36:29,398
Yeah I highly recommend my podcast Slow
833
00:36:29,398 --> 00:36:32,698
Theology which I co host with Dr AJ
834
00:36:32,698 --> 00:36:33,866
Swaboda.We actually talk really lot about
835
00:36:33,866 --> 00:36:34,934
deconstruction what a lot of christians
836
00:36:34,934 --> 00:36:37,642
are going through with just experiencing
837
00:36:37,642 --> 00:36:40,294
doubt and wanting to find faith in a messy
838
00:36:40,294 --> 00:36:41,846
and complex world and with the range of
839
00:36:41,846 --> 00:36:43,886
human experience and emotions that we have
840
00:36:43,886 --> 00:36:45,690
towards the world and towards God So check
841
00:36:45,690 --> 00:36:48,320
out slow theology and then I'm on social
842
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:52,282
media less and less I have podcast, busy
843
00:36:52,282 --> 00:36:54,462
life with my family but strange religion
844
00:36:54,462 --> 00:36:56,850
is my latest offering and otherwise you
845
00:36:56,850 --> 00:36:59,826
can find other stuff I write on Amazon or
846
00:36:59,826 --> 00:37:03,922
my faculty webpage Love it Thank you so
847
00:37:03,922 --> 00:37:06,754
much for in with us today.Nijay I'm going
848
00:37:06,754 --> 00:37:08,546
to have you hang around with our
849
00:37:08,546 --> 00:37:10,566
difference makers in our Patreon community
850
00:37:10,566 --> 00:37:13,218
and ask you another question there to go a
851
00:37:13,218 --> 00:37:15,446
little bit deeper But for just this
852
00:37:15,446 --> 00:37:16,466
conversation I appreciate so much this
853
00:37:16,466 --> 00:37:18,200
talking about these really fascinating
854
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:22,538
things in your book and how it relates to
855
00:37:22,538 --> 00:37:23,866
our lives today and hopefully help us
856
00:37:23,866 --> 00:37:25,690
navigate Amazon really strange environment
857
00:37:25,690 --> 00:37:28,074
going forward Thanks Lori Always a
858
00:37:28,074 --> 00:37:30,778
pleasure to talk to you I really loved
859
00:37:30,778 --> 00:37:31,786
that conversation.I just love on this
860
00:37:31,786 --> 00:37:33,966
podcast how I get to meet people that are
861
00:37:33,966 --> 00:37:35,166
so unique have all these unique
862
00:37:35,166 --> 00:37:36,430
backgrounds jobs that they do perspectives
863
00:37:36,430 --> 00:37:40,062
in the world and Nijay's just he's one of
864
00:37:40,062 --> 00:37:43,326
them right He's doing it things such a way
865
00:37:43,326 --> 00:37:46,674
that he's it these books So you get to see
866
00:37:46,674 --> 00:37:50,994
a lot of how he thinks because of the
867
00:37:50,994 --> 00:37:53,220
nature of writing We get to hear his
868
00:37:53,220 --> 00:37:57,410
thoughts as he writes them down but also
869
00:37:57,410 --> 00:37:59,078
just hearing it express some of those
870
00:37:59,078 --> 00:38:02,262
things that I read in the book and talking
871
00:38:02,262 --> 00:38:05,234
about those together today and going a
872
00:38:05,234 --> 00:38:07,046
little deeper on some of those things it
873
00:38:07,046 --> 00:38:08,838
was just a really interesting conversation
874
00:38:08,838 --> 00:38:10,306
for me And I don't know what you're coming
875
00:38:10,306 --> 00:38:11,206
away with this conversation for yourself
876
00:38:11,206 --> 00:38:13,398
wherever you live in he world and are
877
00:38:13,398 --> 00:38:14,646
listening to this but hopefully it helps
878
00:38:14,646 --> 00:38:16,198
you look back on history with fresh
879
00:38:16,198 --> 00:38:17,794
eyes.Some of the things hearing history
880
00:38:17,794 --> 00:38:18,934
we've been taught or maybe scriptures that
881
00:38:18,934 --> 00:38:20,462
we read around the world we've been taught
882
00:38:20,462 --> 00:38:22,446
these certain narratives about them But to
883
00:38:22,446 --> 00:38:25,118
look at them in a fresh way and a how
884
00:38:25,118 --> 00:38:27,358
people lived back then and what we can
885
00:38:27,358 --> 00:38:30,254
learn from history or our own scriptures
886
00:38:30,254 --> 00:38:31,694
can inform how we live today Decisions
887
00:38:31,694 --> 00:38:33,726
people make that we don't want to keep
888
00:38:33,726 --> 00:38:35,934
making the same bad decisions over and
889
00:38:35,934 --> 00:38:38,290
over again We want to learn from history
890
00:38:38,290 --> 00:38:40,146
not repeat it but also understanding that
891
00:38:40,146 --> 00:38:41,646
that lot of the social change and justice
892
00:38:41,646 --> 00:38:43,906
warriors we have today about lot of the
893
00:38:43,906 --> 00:38:46,754
values and ideals we a came from some of
894
00:38:46,754 --> 00:38:48,226
these early christians who were going
895
00:38:48,226 --> 00:38:50,006
against empire who was saying things need
896
00:38:50,006 --> 00:38:52,006
to be different and they were risking
897
00:38:52,006 --> 00:38:54,358
their very lives for this cause And like
898
00:38:54,358 --> 00:38:56,626
you said they couldn't have imagined 2000
899
00:38:56,626 --> 00:38:57,786
years later that christendom would be what
900
00:38:57,786 --> 00:39:01,062
it is right And I think so many people
901
00:39:01,062 --> 00:39:03,114
understanding whatever a movements around
902
00:39:03,114 --> 00:39:07,386
the world whether it's religious based
903
00:39:07,386 --> 00:39:09,606
faith based or not sometimes could never
904
00:39:09,606 --> 00:39:12,218
imagine He quoted Dr King quite a bit
905
00:39:12,218 --> 00:39:14,794
right Would he imagine a world where all
906
00:39:14,794 --> 00:39:16,094
these years later there's a day named
907
00:39:16,094 --> 00:39:18,046
after him He's quoted nonstop and
908
00:39:18,046 --> 00:39:20,686
sometimes quoted by people who would
909
00:39:20,686 --> 00:39:22,586
probably not like him very much.And the
910
00:39:22,586 --> 00:39:25,186
same could probably be said about Jesus
911
00:39:25,186 --> 00:39:27,826
right People quoting him But if they met
912
00:39:27,826 --> 00:39:30,274
Jesus face to face and some of the radical
913
00:39:30,274 --> 00:39:32,514
things whether was saying you kind of
914
00:39:32,514 --> 00:39:35,970
wonder if they would even honestly want to
915
00:39:35,970 --> 00:39:37,570
continue following sounds If you
916
00:39:37,570 --> 00:39:40,166
understand the rich young ruler story it
917
00:39:40,166 --> 00:39:42,294
sounds like Jesus had some a things to say
918
00:39:42,294 --> 00:39:44,566
Not rude necessarily but just things that
919
00:39:44,566 --> 00:39:46,294
were hard to swallow and meant a life
920
00:39:46,294 --> 00:39:48,406
change that is really uncomfortable and
921
00:39:48,406 --> 00:39:50,866
means giving up things that are really
922
00:39:50,866 --> 00:39:52,266
precious to so.And it means caring about
923
00:39:52,266 --> 00:39:53,786
others in face way that we don't just
924
00:39:53,786 --> 00:39:55,354
think about ourselves and building our own
925
00:39:55,354 --> 00:39:58,714
empires but it's really the opposite of
926
00:39:58,714 --> 00:40:02,006
that I loved how his book talked about
927
00:40:02,006 --> 00:40:04,766
that in a really fresh way in a very
928
00:40:04,766 --> 00:40:07,934
unusual way and it was very compelling and
929
00:40:07,934 --> 00:40:10,526
an exciting book to read So I do hope you
930
00:40:10,526 --> 00:40:13,374
get your hands on it Check it out It's
931
00:40:13,374 --> 00:40:15,214
called strange religion how early
932
00:40:15,214 --> 00:40:18,258
christians contrasted with roman religion
933
00:40:18,258 --> 00:40:19,746
and culture.It's available from Brazos
934
00:40:19,746 --> 00:40:21,666
press So yeah go buy it read it and post
935
00:40:21,666 --> 00:40:23,954
it on social media so other people will
936
00:40:23,954 --> 00:40:26,434
know about it And that's one way you can
937
00:40:26,434 --> 00:40:27,314
make about difference right Helping
938
00:40:27,314 --> 00:40:29,838
amplify the voice of people like Nijay and
939
00:40:29,838 --> 00:40:31,970
the books that they write that really
940
00:40:31,970 --> 00:40:33,526
impact us So we do go a little deeper with
941
00:40:33,526 --> 00:40:34,706
him hands a conversation in our difference
942
00:40:34,706 --> 00:40:37,154
maker community of course.And if you're
943
00:40:37,154 --> 00:40:39,586
not there yet you're really missing out
944
00:40:39,586 --> 00:40:43,194
And I don't want you to miss out So please
945
00:40:43,194 --> 00:40:44,842
go there today at WW dot patreon
946
00:40:44,842 --> 00:40:45,994
comaworldofdifference so you can join us
947
00:40:45,994 --> 00:40:47,386
in all these different exclusive
948
00:40:47,386 --> 00:40:48,442
conversations I think there's over 75
949
00:40:48,442 --> 00:40:50,154
posts on the difference maker community
950
00:40:50,154 --> 00:40:51,898
now And when you join you get access to
951
00:40:51,898 --> 00:40:54,266
different exclusive content that you can
952
00:40:54,266 --> 00:40:55,646
watch and videos.It's not just audio I do
953
00:40:55,646 --> 00:40:58,782
video uploads with most of our guests on
954
00:40:58,782 --> 00:41:00,622
there and you can see us talking about
955
00:41:00,622 --> 00:41:01,918
these things in a little deeper exclusive
956
00:41:01,918 --> 00:41:03,934
episode for you Just the difference makers
957
00:41:03,934 --> 00:41:09,138
It's today way to support this podcast and
958
00:41:09,138 --> 00:41:12,062
it's also a way for us to go deeper
959
00:41:12,062 --> 00:41:15,314
together and you can interact on comments
960
00:41:15,314 --> 00:41:17,094
there Message me Dm me.I've had several of
961
00:41:17,094 --> 00:41:21,366
you do that and it always means a lot to
962
00:41:21,366 --> 00:41:25,042
me I really enjoy making a difference with
963
00:41:25,042 --> 00:41:27,126
you in that community so please join us
964
00:41:27,126 --> 00:41:29,334
there Don't want you to miss out And we do
965
00:41:29,334 --> 00:41:33,094
take a little bit deeper dive with him
966
00:41:33,094 --> 00:41:35,046
Nijay Gupta in that conversation It's
967
00:41:35,046 --> 00:41:36,858
makers. really good one along with so many
968
00:41:36,858 --> 00:41:37,946
others but yeah a special one with Nijay
969
00:41:37,946 --> 00:41:40,794
today.So thank you so much for listening
970
00:41:40,794 --> 00:41:43,526
as always thank you For those of you who
971
00:41:43,526 --> 00:41:44,426
reached out to me recently through
972
00:41:44,426 --> 00:41:46,086
different forms Some of you have DM'd me
973
00:41:46,086 --> 00:41:47,326
on LinkedIn or different social media
974
00:41:47,326 --> 00:41:49,418
platforms that I'm on and just let me know
975
00:41:49,418 --> 00:41:50,766
how this podcast resonates with you And
976
00:41:50,766 --> 00:41:53,626
some of you I have had a chance to meet up
977
00:41:53,626 --> 00:41:56,366
with in person and that's a just so much
978
00:41:56,366 --> 00:41:58,386
fun for me I really like to get to know
979
00:41:58,386 --> 00:42:01,454
each of you if I have opportunities to do
980
00:42:01,454 --> 00:42:02,946
that because this podcast is really
981
00:42:02,946 --> 00:42:03,858
interactive for me.It's as much you
982
00:42:03,858 --> 00:42:06,918
listening to me interview people that I
983
00:42:06,918 --> 00:42:11,670
bring on as it is me wanting to hear from
984
00:42:11,670 --> 00:42:14,886
you and how it's making and difference for
985
00:42:14,886 --> 00:42:17,478
you So I really enjoy hearing how this
986
00:42:17,478 --> 00:42:18,758
podcast is making a difference in your
987
00:42:18,758 --> 00:42:22,214
life and the work that you do and the way
988
00:42:22,214 --> 00:42:23,418
that you're thinking because yeah I just
989
00:42:23,418 --> 00:42:24,858
want to share what's working for me and
990
00:42:24,858 --> 00:42:26,746
the books I'm reading and the people I'm
991
00:42:26,746 --> 00:42:30,758
getting to know and I'd love for you to
992
00:42:30,758 --> 00:42:34,154
kind of do that for me too It's sort of a
993
00:42:34,154 --> 00:42:36,206
two way street here so feel free to reach
994
00:42:36,206 --> 00:42:37,438
out I'm going to be speaking a podcast
995
00:42:37,438 --> 00:42:39,086
movement evolutions at the end of March
996
00:42:39,086 --> 00:42:41,102
doing one of the breakout sessions that
997
00:42:41,102 --> 00:42:42,654
I'm leading by myself about just having a
998
00:42:42,654 --> 00:42:44,720
global podcast I'm really excited to speak
999
00:42:44,720 --> 00:42:47,034
there and I excited too because Amy
1000
00:42:47,034 --> 00:42:48,666
Poehler is going to be the keynote speaker
1001
00:42:48,666 --> 00:42:50,638
which is so fun.The last time I spoke at
1002
00:42:50,638 --> 00:42:51,906
podcast movement evolutions it was will
1003
00:42:51,906 --> 00:42:53,586
Ferrell that I got to hear and sat on the
1004
00:42:53,586 --> 00:42:54,994
front row right in front of him He's
1005
00:42:54,994 --> 00:42:57,150
hilarious And I'm know Amy Poehler is
1006
00:42:57,150 --> 00:43:00,310
going to be too so really excited about
1007
00:43:00,310 --> 00:43:03,218
that But if you're going to be that
1008
00:43:03,218 --> 00:43:05,366
podcast movement evolutions or you live
1009
00:43:05,366 --> 00:43:07,026
having LA there's already a couple
1010
00:43:07,026 --> 00:43:09,686
listeners that have reached out to me
1011
00:43:09,686 --> 00:43:11,506
through social media and I did a call with
1012
00:43:11,506 --> 00:43:13,298
one of them and we're going to meet up for
1013
00:43:13,298 --> 00:43:16,690
coffee there So I always like to meet
1014
00:43:16,690 --> 00:43:18,358
listeners of the podcast if there's
1015
00:43:18,358 --> 00:43:19,526
opportunities to do that.But yeah if
1016
00:43:19,526 --> 00:43:21,406
you're in my breakout session at the end
1017
00:43:21,406 --> 00:43:23,086
of March there in LA would love for you to
1018
00:43:23,086 --> 00:43:24,286
come up and say hi If you're listen to
1019
00:43:24,286 --> 00:43:27,146
this podcast it would mean a lot to me I
1020
00:43:27,146 --> 00:43:28,926
like getting to know each of you when I
1021
00:43:28,926 --> 00:43:30,766
get a so But I know that many of you are
1022
00:43:30,766 --> 00:43:32,078
so busy these days doing great work around
1023
00:43:32,078 --> 00:43:34,174
the world So thank you for taking the time
1024
00:43:34,174 --> 00:43:36,042
to listeners to this conversation to hear
1025
00:43:36,042 --> 00:43:37,098
from Nijay and his perspective.And I just
1026
00:43:37,098 --> 00:43:39,006
want to say as always take care of
1027
00:43:39,006 --> 00:43:40,798
yourself because you matter And as always
1028
00:43:40,798 --> 00:43:41,774
keep making a difference wherever you are
1029
00:43:41,774 --> 00:43:42,446
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1030
00:43:42,446 --> 00:43:43,198
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1031
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00:43:43,678 --> 00:43:44,254
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00:43:44,254 --> 00:43:44,798
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00:43:44,798 --> 00:43:45,366
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1035
00:43:45,366 --> 00:43:47,286
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00:43:47,286 --> 00:43:47,878
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00:43:47,878 --> 00:43:48,626
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1038
00:43:48,626 --> 00:43:49,574
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00:43:49,574 --> 00:43:50,502
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1040
00:43:50,502 --> 00:43:51,206
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00:43:51,206 --> 00:43:51,926
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1042
00:43:51,926 --> 00:43:53,350
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